the Air Vent

Because the world needs another opinion

AGW Part #5 – Limitations of Ice Core Data or The Smoking Gun

Posted by Jeff Id on August 24, 2008

Ice core data as discussed in AGW Part #4, is the result of trapped gasses in microbubbles in ice. The ice is cut using a long tubular saw/drill and removed in long segments. The theory of ice cores is that once the snow pack becomes dense enough, the trapped air cannot travel through the ice core. Diffusion effects are clearly present however. Therefore, if you introduce a high concentration of gas at one point in the core, over time it will spread out. This tends to “filter” sudden spikes in temperature as recorded by gas concentrations over time. Below is an excellent illustration from an excellent site on ice core data here.

You can clearly see the end of the ice age in this graph but what is interesting is, on the right side the temperature looks like a scribble up and down rapidly over and over. Please note that the magnitude of the up and down scribble is almost 3 degrees C quite regularly. All of the global warming hype is about 0.6 degrees C Wow!.

Look to the left side of the graph and you can see that all of the up and down has stopped. This means that the variation in gas concentration has diffused to a more constant level. Do not discount this data just interpret that it cannot detect high frequency changes. My eye tells me that the left side is filtered to about 1000 years average. I used the website above to magnify the right side below.

It appears from this view that the high frequency “scribbles” are about 200 years in width with +/- 1.5 degree variations quite regularly.

Ok for those who have not spent days in dark labs studying linear datasets and filtering algorithms, the meaning of this data is that in recent ice cores less than 5000 years old the temperatures estimates are averaged from about 200 years. Our recent very short term measured temperature rise won’t even show on the graph because it will be rounded off by natural “filtering” of the ice core sample.

If 2000 years ago the temperature spiked up 6 degrees C for 20 years and returned to a perfect average, the ice core data would show a rounded hump with an approximate increase of 6*20/200 or 0.6 degrees C. You can clearly see extended rounded humps in the data of 3 degrees C in height. With no other data, these could in fact be the result of huge 20C temperature rises and falls for short 20 year periods of time (I hope not!).

What we know with absolute certainty though is that the actual temperatures experienced must have varied above and below the “filtered” ice core data quite considerably. Also, around 8000 years ago there is a huge sharp upward spike. If this is a rounded (smoothed by nature) version of the data can you imagine what the true peak temperature was. It could have been over 10C above average for 50 years.

I am so surpised by this spike I included it below.

The spike I am talking about is right after the ‘t’ in present above. The width is the same as the basic width of all of the other variations in the graph. This means it is at the maximum resolution of the dataset. I am going to look for this in other core samples, it looks to me like it could be a huge event. The magnitude of it is clearly much much greater than what we are seeing now from actual temperature measurment.

The above graph is zoomed out to 60K years. The data on the left looks smooth compared to the data on the right. The temperature at the far left seems to have much less variation than that at the right. Again I see a gigantic spike at between 50 and 52k years. Because of the filtering effect which reduces the peak height I think this is much bigger than the 8K year event… Amazing isn’t it! I wonder if it in reality crossed the 0 degree line on this graph.

Ok, this is the full dataset of the ice sample. I can clearly see 4 periodic ice ages and peaks from five recoveries. Note again that the right side has a much higher frequency than the left. This means that the diffusion of the gas microbubbles in the far left side of this graph only allows detection of variations of about 10,000 years of duration. From the graph just before this one 50K years looked smoothed out compared to recent data but on this curve the dataset looks quite noisy (a lot of up and down)

Ok, what can we conclude about this data -

1 – Clearly temperature varies on average in nature by at least 8 degrees C for a minimum of 200 year increments (the highest resolution of ice data). It certainly varies to maximums and minimums significantly beyond that point.

2 – Ice data absolutely cannot be used as a record of short term events less than 100 years.

3- Most of the time the Earth is much colder than today. — This is very bad news down the road!  I need to clarify this entry.  By the graph most of the time Earth is much colder than the last 10000 years.

4 – A temperature change of 1 degree C upward is very small in the scheme of things and if we can create a 1 degree rise it will be quite nice during the nearby (next) ice age.

5 – We still have not achieved the peak temperature recorded after each of the last 4 ice ages. Historically, without input from man, the earth should be warming.

Ok, I will stop here. I feel good about this post though, it should make us skeptical of the IPCC conclusons by itself but there is still more work to do.

I have got to find out more about that 8K year spike.

9 Responses to “AGW Part #5 – Limitations of Ice Core Data or The Smoking Gun”

  1. johnification said

    I sdon’t understand tyour views. Do you or do you not believe in global climate change?

  2. Jeff Id said

    Jonification

    I think the best reply is a question. If we regularly for the last 10k years see temperature variations of 3 degrees C how concerned should we be about our current trend of 0.4 degrees C?

    The second question we need to ask is – How reliable is the ice core data? Come back for that one. It’ll be fun.

    I absolutely believe in climate change. It has been going on for billions of years. It is this man made thing I am skeptical of.

  3. dennis bosco said

    Great website. Have been following the McIntyre/Mann controversy (not really a controversy) for some time.

    Would you be able to suggest any references (other than Jaworowski) on the reliability/validity/accuracy of CO2 measurements taken from ice cores?

    Thank you in advance.

  4. Jeff Id said

    Dennis,

    I’m sorry, I don’t have any good references for you. From what I have read though, I don’t believe the science is anywhere near decided at this point, other than CO2 seems to lag the o18/o16 ratio.

  5. Paul Dennis said

    Interesting post but unfortunately you have made an error in your description of this data.

    First the temperature reconstructions are based on either the relationship between oxygen and hydrogen isotopes of the water molecule and temperature, and NOT based on the isotopic composition of trapped air.

    The resolution of such studies can vary enormously depending on ice accumulation rate, ice sheet dynamics etc. but in favourable cases it is still possible to extract near yearly resolution on core that is 100’s of thousands of years old.

    Diffusion is a problem and needs to be accounted for.

    The 8ka (8.2ka event) is a widely reported feature of many isotopic records including northern hemisphere ice core, travertines/tufas, lake deposits etc.

  6. Jeff Id said

    This is one of my first posts when I started looking at the AGW data. You can watch my learning curve from month to month so when I look back at these posts they occasionally have problems.

    I’m not sure how I’ve misunderstood the technique, I thought Vostock above used a delO18 ratio in the ice, no hydrogen.

    “The resolution of such studies can vary enormously depending on ice accumulation rate, ice sheet dynamics etc. but in favourable cases it is still possible to extract near yearly resolution on core that is 100’s of thousands of years old.”

    I don’t believe this is possible due to diffusion or ice mixing. You can see the effects in the final curve as it becomes gradually smoother. You may have substantially more expertise than myself so can you tell me how would you recover this highly filtered/autocorrelated data?

    “The 8ka (8.2ka event) is a widely reported feature of many isotopic records including northern hemisphere ice core, travertines/tufas, lake deposits etc.” – - I’ve read about it since this post.

  7. Paul Dennis said

    Jeff, Vostok did use del 18O in the ice, but this is not the composition of trapped gas. It is the composition of the ice.

    The self diffusion coefficient of ice is about 5 x 10e-16 m^2.s^-1 at -20 celsius. This gives a transport distance of a few to a few 10’s of cm for 100,000 year old ice. This will allow for quite a lot of smoothing on the annual scale, but allows the possibility of still counting annual layers.

    I don’t dispute your observation that the profiles show a significant smoothing in Vostok, but have seen data for NGRIP that shows sharp annual banding of 40,000 year old ice at 2000m depth in the core. This gives confidence that transitions over decadal time scales are still reasonably well recorded.

    My comment wasn’t meant in any way as a criticism, your grasp of isotope systematics is far better than mine will ever be of signal processing!

  8. Jeff Id said

    I appreciate the help in description of this. Climatology is still pretty new to me and I rarely know the backgrounds of the people posting.

    I thought the d18O was from air, I’ll have to look into it again. Do you have any sources that could help?

  9. Paul Dennis said

    Jeff, a good place to start is this nice paper by Jouzel et al:

    Water isotopes in precipitation:: data/model comparison for present-day and past climates
    Jouxel, Hoffman, Koster and Masson, 1999, Quaternary Science Reviews, 363-379

    It’s also nice to read the original dansgaard paper describing the empirical relationship between surface temperature and precipitation isotope composition:

    Stable Isotopes in precipitation, Dansgaard, w., 1964, Tellus, 436-468

    The relationship between mean annual air temperature and the oxygen isotope composition of precipitation is very strong and holds up very well for high latitude regions.

    Enjoy these papers, particularly the seminal Dansgaard paper (if you can get hold of it, if not I’ll scan mine and email you a copy).

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