the Air Vent

Because the world needs another opinion

Himalaya Glaciers as Studied By Local Scientists

Posted by Jeff Id on February 11, 2010

In response to a recent guest post by Dr. Bhat and the Glaciergate nonsense by the IPCC.  I had a unique opportunity to ask what the opinions of himself or local scientists were of the state or future Himalayan glaciers.  His reply reminded me very much of the posts here where two state climatologists (George Taylor and Mark Albright) were forced from their jobs recently for presenting real data which did not support the consensus.  I’ve written two posts in the past on that situation.

https://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/snowmen/

https://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/nature-of-consensus-snowmen-ii/

In addition to his email posted below with permission, Dr. Bhat also sent 3 links to pdf’s on the topic which are linked after his letter.  These articles include papers on the state of the local glaciers and explanations of their current conditions.  As is regularly the case in climate science, there are several alternative explanations for the effects being measured and some politics affecting what portion of the science is being reported.

———–

Tributary glaciers that once reached the main valley of Nubra. a, Tributary glaciers withdrawn to cirques and b, Moraine deposits of tributary glaciers along the main valley walls.

Dear Jeff,

Writing in response to your mail of 6 Feb, let me tell you that I am specialized in geochemistry and tectonics, not in glaciology. But, as any other geologist, I know the earth has undergone many warming and cooling phases. That is what geologists learn at their elementary level of the subject. It was courtesy one of the co-authors (Chris Smoot) of the book ‘Surge Tectonics’ (Kluwer, 1996) and his colleague (Bruce Leybourne) – both former US Navy scientists — that I became interested in climate science (You may read the attached 2006 article ‘Bushy-Blairy…’ to know more about it). In gist, Smoot and Leybourne noted that each high pressure (HP) and low pressure (LP) cells of the three global oscillation systems that control the world weather are underlain by typical geological structures with vortex geometry and with other typical geomorphological and geophysical characteristics. (Surge Tectonics had already recognized these vortex structures as something not explicable by the mainstream geodynamic concept, the plate tectonics.) Thus, the best studied Southern Oscillation, with which El Niňo is associated, has its HP cell hovering over Easter and Juan Fernandez Islands (two adjacent islands on the East Pacific Rise) and LP cell over the Banda Sea (Indonesia) in the western Pacific Ocean. North Pacific Oscillation (NPO) controlling North American weather patterns, and the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) controlling European and Siberian weather patterns have a similar underlying geology. In the background of then existing observations by seismologist Daniel Walker — pointing to increased tectonic activity (seismicity, magma upwelling and hydrothermal venting) along portions of the East Pacific Rise preceding by up to six months each El Niňo event studied from 1964 to 1997-98 (thus termed “Predictors of El Niño”) — the observations of Smoot and Bruce made an interesting connection for us. We made an attempt to explore this connection with the study of the European heat wave of 2003, and found some apparent confirmation. We argued for deepening the frontier of climate research to see if sun’s magnetic field via Earth’s Core-mantle boundary processes is somehow linked to climate modulation. However, several proposals for funding by Bruce to explore this link didn’t succeed get us pass through the climate establishment camp guards.

Nevertheless my interest at least in knowing about AGW hasn’t diminished. This interest keeps me talking to, among others, two of my colleagues, Prof. R K Ganjoo and Prof. M N Koul (Jammu University) who have been monitoring some large and small glaciers (Siachen, Drgdrun, Machoi, Kangrez, Naradu) in western Himalayas.  Every time, including as recently as yesterday, we talk, they tell me quite different story than what Pachauri and Al Gore and their foot soldiers want us to believe. That also is precisely what V K Raina (author of Forests and Environment Ministry’s Discussion Paper of the health of Himalayan glaciers) told me. Did they they tell any one about their work? Yes, whenever they got any chance, which was hardly ever. But they did publish their results (two attached pdf files here). They were called by Forests and Environment Minister and they did tell him. But when it came to invitation in a conference like the one organized by TERI, Kashmir University and J & K Govt on climate change last year, they were ignored. People from far off, including Hadley Center, were invited but not these two local glaciologists who could have presented real data! I didn’t hear Mr. Raina being there either.

The other part is that I am not oblivious of local history either. In his book ‘The Valley of Kashmir’, Sir Walter Lawrence, a British Govt revenue official writes:

“The old men of the valley declare that the climate is changing, and they are very positive that there are now no such winters as they remembered as boys. In Maharaja Gulab Singh’s time [1846-57] the snow was up to a man’s shoulders, in Maharaja Ranbir Singh’s [1857-85] time up to his knees, but now [Maharaja Partab Singh’ rule] winter passes without any fall of snow. Nearly every man who talks on the subject holds to this belief, and they all say that much less water comes into the valley than of yore. They point to the villages which once grew rice, and to old canals which are now dry, and they maintain that the mountain springs  are decreasing and that the climate of Kashmir is becoming milder and more like that of the Panjab.”  Lawrence published his book in 1895  and his characters talk of events that started long before humans started sinning on carbon emission. I saw this repeating in my life time — at least from snow up to knees, possibly in conformity with an old Kashmir saying: Karana changes every 36 years. Karana roughly translates to phase. Karana or PDO???

Regards

Ismail
M. I. Bhat
Professor & Head
Department of Geology & Geophysics
University of Kashmir

——

Naradu glacier

Siachen glacier

BUSHY-BLAIRY ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING


10 Responses to “Himalaya Glaciers as Studied By Local Scientists”

  1. Annabelle said

    “But when it came to invitation in a conference like the one organized by TERI, Kashmir University and J & K Govt on climate change last year, they were ignored. People from far off, including Hadley Center, were invited but not these two local glaciologists who could have presented real data! ”

    Says it all.

    Thanks for a very interestng article.

  2. P Gosselin said

  3. Great work! Your blog is needed in these times. And because of efforts like yours, the “consensus” is slowly on the retreat. Keep up the good work!

  4. AJStrata said

    For anyone interested I started playing with Cheifio’s dT/dt data and think I found some interesting tidbits.

    http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/12736

    Cheers, AJStrata

  5. Trevor said

    With so much evidence staring the media in the face about the obvious deception the IPCC and the king clown Al Gore have been spreading, I am constantly amazed by how they STILL lean the way of the alarmists, rather than the way of reality.

    ‘World Wide Protest Against the Global Warming SCAM’ on Facebook

  6. Geoff Sherrington said

    This is off thread, but on reading the above I wondered if there was a new climate proxy that had not been studied much.

    In the late 1970s I participated in a survey of Iran from the air. One cannot help notice the qanats, which are a system of water delivery from hillside to lower township. The placement, size and length of these multitudes of qanats might well contain paleo data going back many hundreds of years. Plus timber for carbon dating and in some cases, old books with actual history.

    Rather than describe them here, please see

    http://payvand.com/news/09/apr/1152.html for a general look at Persia of old, with air photos of qanats; and a more detailed account at

    http://www.semp.us/publications/biot_reader.php?BiotID=676

    (The word “qanats” is not to be confused with Australia’s famous airline, “qantas”)

    Does anyone know of their use in paleo reconstructions? They can be found in several countries, including China.

  7. […] Jeff Id at Air Vent has an excellent post up by some researchers who have started to demonstrate this is in fact the source of three major climate engines on Earth, research snuffed out the by elitist snobs who support the AGW nonsense: In gist, Smoot and Leybourne noted that each high pressure (HP) and low pressure (LP) cells of the three global oscillation systems that control the world weather are underlain by typical geological structures with vortex geometry and with other typical geomorphological and geophysical characteristics. (Surge Tectonics had already recognized these vortex structures as something not explicable by the mainstream geodynamic concept, the plate tectonics.) Thus, the best studied Southern Oscillation, with which El Niňo is associated, has its HP cell hovering over Easter and Juan Fernandez Islands (two adjacent islands on the East Pacific Rise) and LP cell over the Banda Sea (Indonesia) in the western Pacific Ocean. North Pacific Oscillation (NPO) controlling North American weather patterns, and the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) controlling European and Siberian weather patterns have a similar underlying geology. In the background of then existing observations by seismologist Daniel Walker — pointing to increased tectonic activity (seismicity, magma upwelling and hydrothermal venting) along portions of the East Pacific Rise preceding by up to six months each El Niňo event studied from 1964 to 1997-98 (thus termed “Predictors of El Niño”) — the observations of Smoot and Bruce made an interesting connection for us. We made an attempt to explore this connection with the study of the European heat wave of 2003, and found some apparent confirmation. We argued for deepening the frontier of climate research to see if sun’s magnetic field via Earth’s Core-mantle boundary processes is somehow linked to climate modulation. However, several proposals for funding by Bruce to explore this link didn’t succeed get us pass through the climate establishment camp guards. […]

  8. AJStrata said

    Excellent catch here Jeff. This is the kind of work that needs to be explored. I have long believed the thermal power of El Nino could not come from the Sun or atmosphere, it had to be from inside the Earth.

    I wonder what one of the magma cyclones does under land masses?

  9. […] Himalaya Glaciers as Studied By Local Scientists « the Air Vent […]

  10. theBuckWheat said

    If anyone wants to rush from observing lower water levels to the assumption that humans caused it, they could consider why the quaint cliff dwellings in the American Southwest were abandoned about a thousand years ago. The climate changed, leaving those peoples without sustainable agriculture and it changed without human help.

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