Steve McIntyre IPCC Presentation

I’ve taken the time to post Steve McIntyres speech notes for the 2009 IPCC presentation along with the slides. It gives a much more complete view of the devastating presentation about Global Warming alarmism and IMO is a must read. SteveM’s notes for the speech are in Blue, as he says it he seldom uses the wording in the slides.

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Do We Know That The 1990s were the warmest decade of the Millennium?

Stephen McIntyre March 9, 2009

New York 2009 International Conference on Climate Change

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Do we know that whether the 1990s were the warmest decade of the millennium as we so often hear?. In my opinion, no. However, the opposite is also the case: neither do we know that the Medieval Period was warmer than the present. This is because the so-called “proxies” in current use are inconsistent; and, at present, this inconsistency is an insurmountable roadblock to answering the question. Minor changes of even proxy versions from nearby sites can yield opposite medieval-modern differentials. Problems with bristlecone tree rings may be familiar to some of you, but there are equally intractable problems with tree rings in Siberia. While I find these issues interesting both statistically and analytically, I readily concede, as some have argued, that the issue may well not “matter” for the “big problem” – Jor-El and the survival of the species sort of thing. Fair enough. But then policy makers and the public surely have the right to be annoyed at IPCC and others for so prominently featuring what they now say to be an irrelevancy in their public expositions of the AGW problem.

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Contrary to later claims at realclimate and similar sites, let there be no doubt that the Mann Hockey Stick was not an incidental appendage to the Third Assessment Report, something that was isolated by skeptics as a weak stray from the flock. It was used over and over and could almost be said to be the logo of the IPCC 2001 report. The picture here shows it behind John Houghton as the backdrop for the press conference announcing the Third Assessment Report.

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The Mann Hockey Stick gave rise to the sound bite: “the 1990s were the warmest decade and 1998 the warmest year”, a sound bite that was adopted by the Canadian government as their lead argument in raising public awareness. Indeed, that’s how I first heard of AGW as an issue.

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The Hockey Stick was also prominently displayed in Inconvenient Truth, where Al Gore spliced the Mann hockey stick with the CRU instrumental temperature record and mistakenly called the spliced series “Dr Thompson’s ice core thermometer”, in effect citing the Mann hockey stick as “independent” proof of itself. Gore took a passing swipe at the so-called the “fierce attack” of “skeptics” against the Stick – thus, I guess, giving Ross and I a backhanded citation.

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The original Mann hockey stick is retained in the 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment, now as one strand in what I’ve termed a “spaghetti graph” – a graph in which the various reconstructions agree on very little except that the late 20th century is slightly warmer than the Medieval Period. Referring to this spaghetti graph, Mann observed some time ago that critics are not facing merely a Hockey Stick but an entire Hockey Team, a term that I cheerfully adopted at Climate Audit to describe Michael Mann, Gavin Schmidt and their associates. In 2008, Mann re-entered the fray with a new MBH reconstruction, using an even more obscure statistical methodology than the original paper.

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Paleoclimate reconstructions are, in statistical parlance known outside the paleoclimate community, a form of “multivariate calibration”, a point that Ross and I raised in our recent PNAS comment on Mann et al 2008 published. Rather than applying known statistical methods to appraise his reconstructions, Mann and associates have developed their own ad hoc methodologies, the properties of which are poorly understood and which, as we observed on an earlier occasion with Mann’s modified principal components method in the original Hockey Stick paper, may have unforeseen defects.. In our 2009 comment on Mann et al 2008, we applied the consistency test of Brown and Sundberg, a prominent multivariate calibration article, to the proxies of Mann et al 2008, finding that the proxies were so inconsistent that it was impossible to establish a finite confidence interval prior to the 19th century. I anticipate that other studies would have similar results. In reply, Mann provided no support for his methodology in statistical literature, instead asserting that their method was “conventional”, citing two climate articles by his sometime coauthors..

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In a survey of statistical problems in ecology in the early 1990s, Jan de Leeuw, a prominent applied statistician, made the obvious requirement of a valid model that it be “stable” to “small and uninteresting perturbations”1 – specifically mentioning stability to data selection and to minor variations in technique. In fact, this sort of test, typically using the word “robustness” is often made in paleoclimate. The problem is that “robustness” claims in the literature are often, shall we say, artful and sometimes even untrue, so that the exact status is often unclear with careful dissection of the analysis.

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This sort of sensitivity analysis was an important aspect of our articles and many Climate Audit posts. One section of our 2005 E&E article was entitled the “Effect of slight variations on 15th century temperature results”, where we reported that slight 1 We usually do not want a small and uninteresting perturbation of our data to have a large effect on the results of our technique. Classical statistics has always studied stability by using standard errors or confidence intervals. Gifi thinks this is much too narrow and other forms of stability are important as well… variations in retained principal components and variations in the presence/absence of bristlecones had a noticeable impact on results, resulting in early 15th values of a Manntype reconstruction exceeding late 20th century values. Since we did not believe that a slight tweak of Mannian proxies and methods would magically yield a valid reconstruction, we did not present this sensitivity analysis as an alternative temperature history, but as a demonstration that questionable methodological and data selection decisions in the original article had a significant impact on results..

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The results are unstable because, in the MBH AD1400 network, only the North American tree ring PC1 dominated by bristlecones and the equally problematic Gaspé cedars have a hockey stick shape. If these series receive less weight, then there is nothing in the other 20 series in the network that generates a hockey stick shape.

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Surprisingly, given everything that you might read, there is not actually any dispute between the parties on a sufficiently well-specified calculation. On the top left, is a figure from Mann et al’s reply to our 2003 article, in which they also obtained very high early 15th century values by excluding bristlecones – that’s not how the described the calculation; they described us as having “thrown out” essential data – data that we later determined to be the bristlecones. The top right shows a figure from Bürger et al (2006), confirming and extending our findings that some seemingly innocuous methodological variations yielded 15th century values higher than 20th values. On the bottom left, our 2005 results are re-plotted, together with two scenarios by Mann’s frequent coauthors, Wahl and Ammann, in which they varied the methodology and number of retained principal components in the middle and the presence/absence of bristlecones on the right. The Wahl and Ammann results and ours reconcile to 7 9s accuracy, though you’d never know it from the literature. All four groups show that the presence/absence of bristlecones or methodological variations that substantially change their weights alter the 15th century-20th century differential.

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A panel of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences considered some of these issues in 2006 and reported that the Mann reconstruction wasn’t robust to the presence/absence of bristlecones, no other intrpretation for the code words “proxy records from indivdual regions” being possible. Ironically, they credited Wahl and Ammann for this observation rather than us.

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Despite the fact that four different groups, two of which included Mann and his close associates, had confirmed that these variations resulted in 15th century values exceeding 20th century values, the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report’s last word was that the impact of these problems was negligible, only about 0.05°C, far below the amount necessary to affect the relationship of early results to 20th Century results. As IPCC reviewers, Ross and I protested this characterization of the matter articulately and in detail, but our comments were disregarded.

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The IPCC claim was based on an assertion by Wahl and Ammann that, if they added enough principal components back into the mix, they could once again get a hockey stick shape. By adding more principal components, the bristlecones were reintroduced as a lower order principal component series. Wahl and Ammann presented a very strange argument for including bristlecones regardless of whether there was a relationship to local temperature. They conceded that the Mann reconstruction had no validity without using bristlecones. They argued that this very failure somehow demonstrated that the bristlecones contained climatic information at the “level of eigenvector patterns in global surface temperatures”. In the plain light of day, the language is absurd, but that didn’t stop IPCC from relying on it as the last word on the matter.

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In doing so, the IPCC also ignored specific findings of another 2006 panel, this one led by Edward Wegman, chairman of the NAS Committee on Theoretical and Applied Statistics. Wegman said that Wahl and Ammann’s tactic of adding back enough principal components to get a Hockey Stick had no “statistical integrity”. As an IPCC reviewer, I asked that the Wegmen Report be considered and cited; IPCC refused. Returning to the original question of stability to data selection and methodology, regardless of any spin from Mann and his associates, I submit that it is impossible to contemplate a smaller and more “uninteresting” methodological variation than whether 2 or 4 covariance principal components should be used in a reconstruction. A valid reconstruction simply should not turn on such a point – an observation that we made clearly in 2005. I also submit that it is hard to contemplate a more appropriate test of data selection stability than the presence/absence of bristlecones. The Mann reconstruction fails on both counts, and, in fact, failed to even live up to its own robustness warranties2. Quite separately from these issues, in our 2005 articles, we reported many questions from specialist literature about whether bristlecones were valid proxies in the first place. The NAS panel stated that strip bark proxies, another code word for bristlecones, should be avoided – a recommendation that was promptly ignored by both IPCC and the paleoclimate community, which, if anything, redoubled its use of bristlecones and even Mann’s discredited PC1. A Dozen Independent Studies 2MBH99 obscurely alludes to the impact of bristlecones on the verification statistics for AD1000 results (neglecting to mention their effect on the presence/absence of long-term trend), previously asserted in MBH98 to be robust to the presence/absence of all dendroclimatic indicators (and, a fortiori, to bristlecones). MBH99 explicitly denied that the post-1400 network of MBH98 was affected, a claim that was untrue. Mann et al 2000 made no mention of the caveat alluded to in MBH99 and asserted in categorical terms that the reconstruction was not sensitive to the presence/absence of dendroclimatic indicators.

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The other supposed support for the Stick has been that similar results have supposedly been obtained by more than a “dozen independent studies”. The claim was made in Mann’s 2003 Senate testimony, by Wigley in a newspaper interview responding to our 2003 article, in Mann’s 2005 letter to the House Energy and Commerce Committee and remains in Wikipedia to this day.

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[SLIDE] The IPCC Fourth Assessment was a little more guarded, recognizing that the data was “not entirely independent”3.

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However, this completely misrepresents the true situation. In fact, the dozen supposedly “independent” studies re-cycle the same data over and over. Bristlecones are used 9 of 12 studies in the spaghetti and versions of Polar Urals and Tornetrask are used in every study in the spaghetti graph. This lack of independence means that, if, for any reason, there should be a problem arise with bristlecones, Polar Urals or Tornetrask or all of them, every IPCC reconstruction is affected. And this proves to be the case.

Bristlecones

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At face value, Mann’s bristlecone ring width chronologies show little difference between the Little Ice Age and Medieval Warm Period in California. This is at odds with ecological information – it has been known since the 1970s that medieval bristlecones grew well above the present tree line. In 2006, Constance Miller and associates used ecological niche information to estimate that California was about 3.2 degrees warmer in the medieval period than at present. As a reviewer, I asked IPCC to cite this article; they refused.

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In 2006, the bristlecone chronologies, originally collected by Donald Graybill in the 1980s, were over 20 years old. Whether they were right or wrong, they represented the results of only one researcher. Mere prudence suggests that Graybill’s bristlecone sites should be re-sampled. Given the relative warmth of the past 2 decades, this would be an ideal out-of-sample test of their validity as unique world thermometers in warm conditions – a point that we forcefully raised in a 2005 Op Ed. There’s an extra reason in this case – ironically, Graybill was trying to show that carbon dioxide fertilization influenced growth. Arch-skeptic Sherwood Idso was a coauthor of the Graybill article originally publishing the bristlecone series relied upon by Michael Mann. In 2003, Idso was astonished to learn that this data had been used as the active ingredient in the hockey stick. Despite the urgent need for modern data, the IPCC Fourth Assessment asserted that, unfortunately, there was no recent data at the key tree ring sites. Mann had previously justified this lack of due diligence by saying that updates would have require “heavy equipment” and expensive travel to out of way sites. I’m familiar with mining exploration 3 As with the original TAR series, these new records are not entirely independent reconstructions inasmuch as there are some predictors (most often tree ring data and particularly in the early centuries) that are common between them, but in general, they represent some expansion in the length and geographical coverage of the previously available data (Figures 6.10 and 6.11 and, at Climate Audit, I teasingly formulated what we called the Starbucks Hypothesis: that a UCAR scientist could have a latte at Starbucks in the morning, update the bristlecones in the day and still be home for dinner. More on this later.

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In fact, contrary to IPCC claims, some important sites had been updated, including the most important site in the Mann reconstruction, the Sheep Mt bristlecones, which had been updated in 2002 by Linah Ababneh, then a PhD student at the University of Arizona. MBH coauthor Hughes was on her thesis committee. Her results totally failed to replicate Graybill’s distinctive hockey stick – Graybill’s results are shown on the left; hers on the right. This was not mentioned by IPCC. Mann et al 2008, for which Hughes was a coauthored, perpetuated the use of the obsolete Graybill chronology rather than the up-to-date Ababneh results, making no attempt whatever to reconcile the discrepancy or to justify the decision.

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In 2007, another Graybill bristlecone site at Mt Almagre in Colorado was updated. This is now both the most up-to-date and highest 1000 year tree ring chronology in the world. Instead of ring widths increasing in the 30 years since 1980, they declined and currently are more or less at their long-term average.slide23

The samplers also proved the controversial Starbucks Hypothesis. At 7 a.m., they had coffee at the Starbucks in Colorado Springs and by 9 a.m. were ready to sample bristlecones. You may recognize one of the samplers.

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Pete Holzmann, a Climate Audit reader, managed to locate some of the trees tagged by Graybill in the 1980s. This was pretty lucky as there were no maps and the coordinates on file were not very precise.

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[SLIDE] From our work at Almagre, we think that there may be an amusing explanation of the Hockey Stick. Strip bark trees are trees where the bark has died around the circumference, leaving only a strip, often leading to bewildering contortions. In one test of two cores about 9 inches apart, one core had a 6 sigma growth pulse lasting over a century and then subsiding, while the adjacent core didn’t. We think that the 6-sgima growth pulse may be a mechanical reaction to the bark stripping off and have nothing to do with temperature or carbon dioxide. In the usual small sample of 20 or so cores, it is obvious that even a couple of 6-sigma excursions could have a profound impact on the average. This is not a simply theoretical concern as Graybill said that he intentionally selected strip bark and we identified this precise problem in one of Graybill’s tagged trees. From seeing incipient strip bark, Pete Holzmann thinks that strip bark may originate from broken branches, which in turn may come from heavy snowfall. Ironically, the explanation of the Graybill chronologies may be a century long strip bark pulse, with severe weather in the US West in the 1840s occasioning an unusual incidence of strip bark formation. An odd explanation indeed for the Hockey Stick. Polar Urals

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There are still three IPCC reconstructions that don’t use bristlecones. But each of these – Jones et al 1998; Briffa 2000 and D’Arrigo 2006 – is unstable to one data version decision – a choice between two versions of Polar Urals data.

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The 1998 Jones reconstruction had only 3 series in the 11th century, one of which was Briffa’s then recent Polar Urals chronology published in 1995. Briffa’s Polar Urals tree ring reconstruction was an opening shot against the then prevalent concept of a Medieval Warm Period, claiming that 1032 was the coldest year of the millennium.

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As in California, this chronology was at odds with ecological information. In 1995, Shiyatov, a Russian specialist, reported that the medieval treeline was well above current treelines and that the medieval period was a time of record growth. In 2004, Naurzbaev et al estimated that the medieval period was 1.5 to 3 deg C warmer than at present. As a reviewer, I asked the IPCC to cite this article; again they refused.

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It turned out that the Briffa chronology was based on only 3-4 poorly dated cores in the early 11th century – far short of usual dendro standards. In the late 1990s, new material was cross-dated 11th century, yielding a totally different result: an elevated Medieval Warm Period

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Briffa did not publish the new Polar Urals data (nor did anyone else) – I obtained the data only through quasi-litigation with Science. In his 2000 reconstruction, instead of using the updated Polar Urals series, Briffa substituted a new chronology from Yamal, about 90 miles away from the other site. Remarkably, unlike the updated Polar Urals series with its elevated medieval period, the new chronology had a pronounced hockey stick shape.

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Briffa’s Tornetrask versions were used in all the spaghetti graph studies. However, in 2006, a new Tornetrask version was published without Briffa. The data had been collected some years earlier. Once again, the effect was that the medieval period was considerably enhanced relative to the modern warm period.

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Contrary to IPCC claims, these instabilities really do matter for the spaghetti graph studies. On the left, I’ve shown the spaghetti graph from the NAS panel report, and, on the right, a corresponding spaghetti graph derived by minor variations in data selection – in each case using only data sets that have been used in one of the spaghetti graph studies.

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By now, I’m sure that you’re sick of tree ring data. But ice core delta O18 – Lonnie Thompson’s hockey stick – offer little help in resolving the dilemma. The chart at right shows 6 O18 series over the past 1000 years from north to south. Greenland (top) and inland Antarctica (bottom) show little change in the period. Law Dome in Antarctica(second from the bottom) had elevated medieval delta O18. Mt Logan, Yukon (second from top) shows the opposite effect to the one generally expected. 20th century delta O18 values are much lower than 19th century values – the authors attribute this not to decreasing temperatures, but to changing regional circulation. Fair enough, but once you invoke that explanation, there is no basis for being sure that increasing O18 values at (say) Dasuopu in the Himalayas are not also a result of regional circulation changes.

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One also needs to consider glacier retreat evidence, which may well point towards the modern period being warmer than the medieval period. In Alberta in 1999, a retreating glacier exposed in situ stumps that were dated about 2800 BP, stumps that do not appear to have been exposed in the medieval period.slide35

At Quelccaya glacier in Peru, Lonnie Thompson has identified plant remains from the retreating glacier, some of which are dated about 4500 BP and which do not appear to have been exposed in the medieval period.

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In the Swiss Alps, Joerin and associates have dated wood fragments from receding glaciers, primarily prior to the medieval period. They posited that the Alps were green in Roman times, illustrating their concept with the colorful comparison to the present day shown here. So there is definitely glacier retreat evidence that points to the modern period being warmer than the medieval period. But this evidence is a two-edged sword for proponents of unprecedentedness. The very evidence showing that the modern period is warmer than the medieval period also shows that plants and trees grew even higher in even earlier warm periods. The plant remains recovered by Lonnie Thompson from the receding Quelccaya glacier are up to 400 meters higher than their present limit.

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[SLIDE] Now we come to a harder question. Does any of this matter in a big picture sense?

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Mann’s realclimate colleague, Gavin Schmidt, has stated that the position that the Stick is the “least important” figure in understanding climate:4 If this is the “least important” figure, third parties are surely entitled to ask why IPCC, Al Gore and others used it so extensively. Wouldn’t the IPCC and others have carried out their responsibilities more effectively if they’d focused on presenting the “most important” figures to a public that is starving for knowledge? And having publicized the “least important” figures so much, surely they are in no position to blame others, if the public has trouble understanding their message. Maybe they should look into the mirror and try to insure that they focus on what’s important. Indeed, on the basis that the hockey stick was as irrelevant as Gavin Schmidt said, I suggested that the Fourth Assessment Report save space by deleting the entire topic and focusing on matters that were important. They thought otherwise and thus we have the spaghetti graph.

slide39 Having said all this, in preparing for this conference, it occurred to me that there is one version of the Hockey Stick type diagrams that actually is relevant to policy makers and the interested public. On the left, I show a figure from the 2001 Synthesis Report (not the WG1 report), which splices the Mann hockey stick with the various IPCC scenarios. On the right, I’ve plotted the despised Lamb schematic on a corresponding scale together with Fourth Assessment scenarios. In my opinion, given their forecasts, IPCC could reasonably illustrate the scale of change under their forecasts as compare to something like the Medieval Warm Period, even under Lamb’s view. This turns the question back to the validity of the forecasts – which has always been the big question – and away from the intricacies of obscure statistical manipulations of tree ring data.

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On the other hand, there is another line of opinion that the Hockey Stick is important because paleoclimate information is used in estimating climate sensitivity and, if the Stick is wrong, ironically the real situation is much worse than we think. Regardless of whether this position is right or wrong, I have a simple answer: well, if that’s the case, we’d better find out if the Hockey Stick is correct and govern ourselves accordingly. And if it matters, other people besides me should take an interest in critical analyses of the methods and data used in these reconstructions. And efforts to obstruct the determination of whether the Stick is right or wrong though withholding of data and code should be condemned not just by me, but by the broader climate science community.

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135 thoughts on “Steve McIntyre IPCC Presentation

  1. I;ve been following McI since 2005. It’s been a 4 year tease. The guy evades questions on things that show faults in his analyses. Even guys like Zorita and Burger have called him out for it. If you all want to whack off for the next 4…8…20 years on the ner like this, feel free. But the guy is a typical Clinton-loving equivocator.

    And Heartland is a motherfucking joke. Hack central. The NYT was dead on. Even SM konws its true althjough he lacks the balls or the honesty to call his own side out.

  2. #1, I would never claim SteveM is perfect but you provided no examples of specific errors. I didn’t go to the Heartland conference but from my own efforts with proxy data, I see no errors in SteveM’s statements. Still I don’t mind disagreement.

    When you say -The NYT was dead on. I say bull. You’re motive is always to stir things up so it’s not unexpected. The NYT had no understanding of any issues and the reporter went to the conference with the single goal of making reasonable and often correct people look unorganized. You know that as well as I do, if you have the gonad’s you claim you will also keep it honest.

  3. Wow TCO, just a straight for the jugular ad hom attack, eh? Nothing subtle about that. TCO’s comment should be stricken because it makes people who read it to lose IQ valuable points. And this comment should be stricken at the same time.

    If TCO wants to point out some error in this presentation, that might be interesting. But I don’t think he can do it.

  4. I did not read the speaker notes. And only glanced at the presentation.

    My comment was pure ad hom. Or really not even ad hom. I’m not even trying to address that presentation. But instead make a general point. However I have wasted weeks of time on the climatosphere and probably commented on more CA threads, from 2005-2007 than anyone other than Steve or JohnA. So I have good basis for my remarks.

  5. TCO, where is the equivocation in SM’s presentation? What is he evading? Where are the faults? Since you have been following him so long you must have seen the flaws immediately when you spotted them. This would be a great thread to discuss any such flaws and how critical they are to the conclusions. Why should we respect your vague comments when you can’t even honor your own (twice) commitment to not curse?

  6. I think the NYT guy was dead on, because I’ve followed things for a long time and seen the social and intellectual dynamics, Jeff. I’m actually way to the right of McI (or at least what McI claims to be…a Clinton lover.) I was sympathetic and wanted McI to be right. But the whole thing has been a years drawn out tease. The guy does not respond to tough questions. Only publishes informally and on his own site. Controls the debate. It’s not as bad as Watts who won’t fess up to mistakes from a year ago. But similar in nature. It’s bad news guys. Keep perspective and don’t get drawn in.

  7. Layman:

    I’m not commenting on the presentation. But on the person.

    Sorry about cussing. Thank you for th ereminder.

  8. #7 I’ve no doubt you’re to the right politically of Steve. He’s hinted about his leanings several times (nobody’s perfect). 😉 In the case of the Air Vent, I just lay it out there. The less government in my life the better. My government has done a great deal of harm to myself and my family. More than I care to share and I certainly don’t appreciate the unreasonable taxes stolen from me in the past as well as this year. In 96 the government took more taxes from me than I made in 97.

    Regarding the asinine NYT reporter, you’ve got to be kidding. It was nothing but propaganda deliberately fabricated to a predetermined conclusion. I like that you speak your mind, but it’s hard to imagine this is what you really think.

    I’ve personally done quite a bit more on the subject of the hockey stick’s and my conclusion is that Steve M is absolutely correct. In every case I’ve checked, (I did my own ARIMA work) the results are the same. I even posted the code to build your own HS from Mann’s data (positive, negative, sine wave, whatever). You can’t make a fake hockey stick over and over from a dozen different BROKEN methods without intent either. These people do NOT have science in mind when they’re publishing. The reactions by the IPCC to Steve’s points outlined above should give a conservative nightmares.

    Steig’s paper is flawed as well, but it may not be far off. We’ll find out but at this point, the group he’s hanging around with has a bad history.

  9. McI has been evasive about places where he was weak. The links I give show that. also read back to 2005. Several times I asked for simple things like percent impact of flaws ansd he refused to give it. He’s a penny stock publicist. Not a Feynman-Heinlein look a fact in the face kinda guy.

  10. This doesn’t mean, he never has an interesting point or Mann has nothing wrong. I thing both are true. What it means is watch the guy…since he has some fundamental dishonesty…he is Mannian in ways.

    I really did think the NYT reporter had the Heartland thing down. There are some real weak sisters there like Watts. SM even tries to avoid the guilt by association..but the bottom line is it’s a collection of losers that only has a few decent points to make…and a lot of deadwood and solar cycle nuts and the like.

  11. I don’t know this from beiung at the conference buyt from knowing the playeers froim years of net reading of blogs.

  12. What happened to the Stick is the “least important” figure in understanding climate?

    You are correct TCO. You have wasted your time and ours. Try selling crazy at Grant Foster’s place, or on MSNBC.
    They never get their fill of your type of bullshit there.

  13. TCO Assuming that “these” blogs are all meaningless chatter why do you find it necessary to project such a vile image? Your responses really appear as if you have been mortally wounded by these “anti” warming blogs. Why the howls of pain?
    “I don’t know this from beiung at the conference buyt from knowing the playeers froim years of net reading of blogs.” On the other hand it is maybe time to take your meds.

  14. TCO
    You have criticised Steve Mc in the past for not communicating clearly enough, and for (in your opionion) avoiding questions

    Instead of repeating this criticism based on what he wrote years ago, why not comment on his most recent presentation? After all, he may have taken your advice

  15. #19 This is not an anti-warming blog. This blog represents only what I find. If I find warming in the papers, that’s what this blog will show. I’ve been unsuccessful in locating the evidence so far, that’s all. BTW, if I do find AGW to be true, don’t expect it to change my view on how to react to it.
    ————-
    I learned something while in college. Not spelling or writing for sure.

    I learned that the data will take you to the conclusion whether you like it or not. It isn’t our choice if AGW is true. Our choice is whether we can detect it, and how to react to it. That’s all we get for choices.

    The rest is F=ma.

  16. re: TCO (#10),

    TCO, I’ve now taken the time to review the thread you posted. I don’t think you really understand what happened there. Nobody was reluctant to answer your questions. Nobody was hiding anything.

    You simply wore everyone out.

    Do you have a clue what happens to the site administrator, and to other readers, when you make seven posts in a row, a few minutes a part?

    * For the admin (steve): you added immensely to the job of scanning comments for spam/etc. (Someone must manually browse a list of recent comments… you hogged much of the bandwidth, requiring an admin (Steve) to spend more time reviewing the list.)
    * For other readers: you hogged the entire “recent comments” list, making it hard for us to see what was going on. You also generated a huge number of RSS feed articles, which clog up people’s RSS readers. Basically, a boring, painful boatload of junk.

    Do you understand what it looks like to others when you continue to harp on topics for which they have given answers to you that others found fully useful, and sufficient to replicate Steve’s results?

    Yes, you made some final comments, and nobody paid attention. Sorry, I highly doubt anyone noticed. We’d all long since left the room and turned the lights out. I don’t think any of your comments were unanswerable. If anything, they simply repeated what had already been said before.

    I hope by now you’ve learned not to treat a blog like an instant messaging system. Hold off on pressing the “submit” key until you have said your piece, and have edited your writing so that it says what you want it to say.

    Please get off the high horse of claiming “evasiveness” about your inquiries, when in reality it is evasiveness about your personality. I’m sorry to have to say this, but in that thread, you reminded me too much of a child who keeps saying “why?” no matter how their parent responds. Eventually, they get sent to their room.

    Again, I’m sorry if that seems harsh. I don’t find any example where Steve was actually evasive about answering. And I don’t see it in his personality either. I’ve seen plenty of examples that show he’s a fundamentally honest inquirer, not one with “fundamental dishonesty.” And he’s working hard to learn additional attributes like humility and diplomacy… hence his willingness to put more effort into writing and speaking with less of an “edge”, and more effort put into evenhanded management of the blog. The community is much the better for it.

    BTW, thanks TCO for sharing your impression of the NYT reporter. It is a very helpful indicator of your ability to judge human motives and traits.

  17. Andy: I won’t make an active attempt to keep checking for a change of behavior…but if I note it anyhow, will let you know.

    Pete:

    It’s not the first instance I’ve noted of evasion. I realize that I don’t come across well there. There are more examples though. Have you read the entire site?

  18. Positive:
    a. McIntyre has found a few interesting things.
    b. Has more free play allowed on his blog then on RC.

    Negative:
    a. Has only published one real paper in a regular journal (the 2005 GRL paper). He tends to claim the EE papers and rebuttals to comments as publications, but of course they are not real papers as most people define that.
    b. Failure to publish would not be an issue if he wrote top notch “working papers”, but he does not.
    c. On his blog, his analyses are sloppy in many ways:
    (1) confounding factors (he will note a change in variable x when he also changed variable y at the same time…note he did this in GRL paper also.) Note that Gerd Burger actually has a great paper doing a full factorial on method choices.
    (2) taking single stations or series and making implicit assessments of an overall data set from them.
    (3) does not supply citations.
    (4) often grammar or style mistakes which make it hard to discern even what is being asserted…clearly
    (5) writes in a mystery story style…tells a long story of how he got to a result…what he examined…rather than making a comment about how some algorithm handles some data or the like.
    (6) Mixes in lots of snark…offputting and just annoying…as well as a distraction from following a math/physics logic train.
    (7) Often has mislabeled graphs and poorly written equations (which makes it hard to disaggregate issues of controversy from mistakes).
    d. Controls the conversation. Note…more freedom is allowed than on RC. But it is still not equal treatment. Someone who makes mindless egging on comments from the skeptic side is allowed to stay…but the opposite is squashed. Note, that this is the opposite of RC with Vincenthaven. Also, note that such remarks in controversy draw more ire…and thus are more notable. Still it is not equal.
    e. There is an unresolved issue of whether the blog is for discussion, whether results should be taken seriously and need to be responded to…versus just being a scratch pad. McIntyre likes to have it either way depending on how it helps him at the moment.
    f. On points where he is weak or maybe in error, McIntyre avoids being pinned down and complains about tediousness. Burger and I have both had this experience. He has a Clintonian tendancy to avoid being pinned down.
    g. At times, he will complain that he lacks the time for serious discussion on issue analysis…but he has the time for lots of silliness.
    h. His treatment of the Phoenix airport was dishonest (not his initial assertion…but his failure to correct the misimpression when notified. In a sense, he has STILL failed to correct it…as he has posted complaints about people complaining about his failure to make a correction…rather than just making the note that the predicate to his analysis was off (if A then B becomes meaningless when A shown to be wrong assumption.)
    i. He is still delinquint on supplying code to show his revised RE benchmarking results. (I am worried that he made an error and refuses to come clean.)
    j. He has been too late for reviews and has written papers days before meetings (and it showed).
    k. Tends to wander and want to leave a basic point and throw in other things “that the bad guys did” even when it’s not part of the topic as hand. As if he sees some sort of contest at all times rather than an examination of what choices in data analysis are appropriate…of how certain algorithms deal with certain data tending to give certain results.

    Bottom line: It is pretty tedious and oily to read his work. But he’s (somewhat) bright…and the other side is prone to sophistry as well. However, I would not dispair. I have found people like Zorita, Wegman, Mosher, JohnV, the phsics guy from Argonne (can’t remember the name), even Bender when he can get his head straight from having it kicked, etc. to be willing to be direct and honest and more what the ideal of a scientist is.

    I say this as a life-long, far-right Republican, wannabe skeptic, and someone who takes the ethic of science and of science publishing seriously.

    (cut and pasted)

    He finally came through with the RE code (description of methodology..where I had to threaten calling the GRL editor on him….but after months delay for about 10 lines of code.)

  19. Steve McIntyre has a nasty habit of editing in his benefit without showing the correction or the earlier mistake. Not only is it self-serving, it actually makes it that much harder to actually have a debate/discussion. And when you add in the meandering posts, the refusal to clearly concede points, it’s a frigging Cold Fusionist style mess.

    (cut and pasted)

  20. Jeff – thanks for putting up the slides with the comments, it is much easier to read than the two separate documents over at CA.

    TCO, you are obviously a bright guy and you have some good insights, which I appreciate (could do without the mf’s though). The comment sections of blogs often suffer from the echo chamber, and it is good to hear dissenting opinions to keep things in perspective. But c’mon, no one believes you dislike Steve because of his liberal politics, the Clinton-loving commie stuff is over the top. Admit you’re a lefty and embrace it. You harassed my buddy Patterico over his conservative politics, he rarely writes on AGW.

    Steve isn’t perfect, but the stuff about him controlling the debate is a bit of a stretch. The guy gets paid nothing a writes on a small blog, how does that control the debate? If you were just as harsh against the team, Al Gore, or the IPCC I might think you meant it, as they control the debate far more than Steve’s little old blog.

    So what makes you tick? Dislike capitalism? Don’t like that Joe Six-pack’s vote counts just as much as yours? Big grant money studying AGW? Or are you a true believer?

  21. http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1302

    Note the change from Steve after comment 42…but that he still blew off responding with ~10 lines of code for 6 months. (And, fyi, even here…it was not him just responding…but me pointing out his continued refusal in a separate thread on another site, I think Tammy or Strange Weather, that finally got him to supply.)

  22. cut and paste…

    More CA negatives:
    A Confusion (seemingly deliberate) of PC1 versus overall Mann Hockey stick effects.

    Note that by doing so, this helps SM to make out the effects of Mann’s sins to be worse than what they are. Helps falsely convince his cheering section.

    B. This is compounded by REFUSAL to calculate the numerical effect of individual Mann mistakes on the end result Hockey stick. I always agreed with the Heinleinian, “if it doesn’t have numbers it’s not science” or the business consultant view that value is created by translating qualitative discussions to quantitative analysis. But SM seems to play an Artful Dodger game here of avoiding coming to grips. And numerical displays of this kind show that some of his posited mistakes are low impact. But he wants to avoid the hoi polloi seeing that.

    The other thing is that at any time with a judgement call of a method choice or what have you in a simulation, he will always pick the choices that are most extreme in making his opponents’ papers look bad. He will not adequately show how other choices could be made and a smaller impact exist. He does not play fair here. this is really penny-ante crap and unfortunate as some of his points are true even if of less extent than what he likes to show. But this is a sign that he values rhetoric and PR over math/science exploration.

    One thing he does is tries to get the “signature” Mann mistake (acentric transformation in PCA), which really was a mistake…wasn’t properly described by Mike….has not been adequately admitted by stubborn Mike….and having it carry the weight of other method choices (proxy selection, etc.)

    C. On one occasion, he REFUSED to disclose or have meaty discussions with his method of calculating red noise (while criticizing others). When I finally pushed hard, he got very testy…told me to look at the code. Which by the way uses a prepackaged algorithm that IS NOT well described…which I actually had to go the author of that code package to get a description of. Note that he also MIS-DESCRIBED his code as “involving fractional differencing…and that’s way tough math even for me”. AND IT WASN’T fractional differencing. Not sure if he was just making a mistake here or deliberately telling a fib. Either way, he was making an obvious attempt to brush off investigation. And when shown in error on the fractional differencing, he refused to address it. He is very passive aggressive about acknowledging mistakes. Resists it like crazy. Like a schoolboy. Oh…and by the way, his method involves a LOT of parameterization of the actual data set. So that it is questionable, how much his “noise” is really noise…is independant of the initial data set.

  23. Jeff: sorry for the mfs. I really ama conservative. But one who beleives in facing facts. I don’t like it when “our side” does not do so. If Libby lied, he should fry. No wimpy pardons.

  24. Oh…and Patterico (and Bush and McCain and JustOneMinute and Powerlineblog) are all wimps and morons for not fighting the bailout. Only Michell Malkin hung tough. She has more balls than that lot of RINOs. They’ve totally abondondinend the free market. They are killing the Republic. I hope they all get AIDS and die. Bunch of K street lobbyuist paid you know whats. Disgusts me that they wear an R. Reagan and Goldwater are turning in graves. The problems started with Bush1 and the NNT pledge break.

  25. Ok, I know the left hates MM and couldn’t even pretend to like her. Maybe you really are a fellow right-wing wacko.

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on Steve Mc.

  26. #30: Steve’s argument, if I recall correctly, is that most of the analysis that he does is not published work and so he shouldn’t have to hold it to the same standards that he he holds the Hockey Team and others who are published, IPCC-used authors. I agree that when there is a hint of an error on Steve’s part that this response is a bit of a cop-out, but it’s technically correct. There’s always the temptation to hide mistakes, but you really should just come clean and be honest. Of course, Steve makes far fewer mistakes and knows far more than most people, even amongst an analytically-minded population.

    Didn’t mean that as a comparison to Jeffs, UC, Roman, Hu, etc., but to other posters, the hockey team, etc.

  27. #30 TCO

    A. Please be more specific on this point. What are the issues being confused and why are they relevant.

    B. An absurd and twisted interpretation of Heinleinian. Spencer succesfully disproved “Spencer’s Folly” by Tamino with the following:

    “…all of my feedback work addresses TIME-VARYING radiative forcing (as occurs during natural climate variability), not CONSTANT radiative forcing (as is approximately the case with global warming).”

    C. Could you link to the relevant thread on your red noise example please. Regarding the fractional differencing and brushing off attempts to probe a potential mistake, I am in the process of reading the CA thread above in comment #10. I won’t be commenting on methods of fractional differencing but then again, maybe like Dr. Spencer, a simple qualitative proof or disproof of the “brushing off of an investigation” is all that is needed.

  28. Wow, the far right unhappy with the effort to refute the bad science …. WOW!!!!
    I got it you can’t go to the far left and say anything there because they delete you on the spot…. I got it.

    Thanks for the post Jeff, And BTW we read here but don’t always post 😦
    sorry will try to leave a little good or wowow or some such thing.

    Left a big post at wuwt but…… i dono. the noise in the readings are hard to sort out
    even with my… our… huge intellect. too many variables to weed through.
    RH is in this…. Jeff you have some age. and I ask this one question…….
    when you were young ( child ) do you remember white fluffy clouds?
    I do, lots of days with fluffy… some with clear, some with solid type rain.
    I have not seen, in the last 20 years, nearly any as what i did ….
    one more, old movies show fluffy, many fluffy…. no… no stats… no grafts… no diary’s no way to PROVE…..
    God be with you and yours always.
    Tim

  29. #38 – good morning.

    I wasn’t looking for supportive comments just comments on SteveM’s work. People are welcome to their thoughts here. However, maybe well all learn something if the threads follow the topic. On CA the threads are long and often old, but you can often learn more from RomanM, JeffC or Hu or Ryan, and a pile of others too long to list. I actually learned several things from SteveM’s presentation.

    Using trees for thermometers is bad enough, how about strip bark trees where half the tree is dead. It’s insane, of course the tree ring widths are going to be non-linear. I think that’s the point though.

    Regarding the clouds, I remember blue skies where there wasn’t a tinge of brown at the horizon. I became a lot more sensitive to it when I started going to China. They seem to have invented brown. The high concentration of junk in the air makes you acutely aware of how much emissions actually affect the local air quality. I wish the liberals would let us build more nukes, the improvements in air quality would be worth it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the particulates in the air had an enormous effect on cloud nucleation.

    Sure the AGW scientists say they already considered these things but if you’re paying attention you know this is the weakest point of the models. — Positive CO2 feedback and cloud formation.

    I feel good this morning. I think I’ll mess around with satellite data.

  30. 37.

    A. In several discussion threads, c. 2005-6, describing the Mann method as producing hockey sticks…and showing the PC1 that is produced. However this is not “the hockey stick” of Mann’s figure used in IPCC, etc. When commenters on threads confused the two, Steve did not clarify. When I asked the clarifying question, I was ignored and had to be persistent. The thing is that the impact of thr off centering is MUCH higher on the PC1 than it is on the overall final picture. Steve shows what dramatizes the effect and allows a misimpression to exist. He will parse language, avoid questions etc. in an attempt to avoid a direct lie…which is Clintonian…however this sort of fancy prevarication would get him tossed from a military school for breaking the honor code.

    B. So when someone describes a flaw, it is not useful to think about the impact? How do you get through life with that attitude? How do you analyze businesses? P.s. I don’t know anything about Spencer example you cite…or care probably.

  31. Steve has made several claims that “the bcps” don’t track with local weather as though it were an established fact, but has not cited a definitive review study to that effect, nor has he published one of his own. And he made these comments befor Ababneh. He has a high hurdle for things that hurt his views and a low hurdle for thsoe that help. This is not the behavior of a genuinely curious skeptical Feynman type person.

  32. #39 There was a good point on WUWT, if true, that the models were in disagreement with measured humidity. As has been argued on RC by one of the authors, Browning, of the effect http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1175%2F1520-0469(2000)057%3C0595%3ACOOOAM%3E2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1 (mathematics), MODEL E uses a hyperviscous layer to keep vorticity from causing negative energy and mass in the model’s grid. Gavin and Jerry discussed this is in a thread at RC. A discussion at CA is here http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=674 The transport of mass and energy to the TOA cannot be done correctly with such an unphysical boundary (hypervicosity). If the humidty and lapse rate are wrong or modelled wrong, the heat and mass transfer to TOA cannot be correct. This aspect is one that the modellers try to ignore or gloss over. They use parameterization and large grid. However, I believe the real impact of the authors’ work is that parameterization and grid size will NOT work in this case. Obviously, if the vertical velocity or its gradient is not computed correctly, the claim of the models being physically correct is untrue. If the models get the answer right now, they will be wrong when something changes, cooling or heating, since the physics and math are wrong.

  33. #41 If you actually plot some of the proxies yourself and look at the temp station data, it’s very very obvious they are not temp.

    There is a problem with r correlation as verification. Certainly shorter and longer growing seasons leave a high frequency signal in tree rings. This effect allows an increased spurious correlation to become apparent where no long term signal whatsoever exists. Just comparing proxies visually it’s very easy to see they have little or no resemblance to temperature. The fact that a serious scientist would use these things as temp without any verification cliaming r correlation as proof is beyond my little engineer brain.

    Now while you make a point that all of us are naturally more accepting of information which supports our views and we all need to be on constant guard against it (tammie’s a great example of what not to do). Your example of bristlecones is pretty easy to vet against temps.

    Temps continued to go up BCPS went down. Mann08, faced with this inconvenience ‘chopped’ the data he didn’t like right off the ends back to 1960 RegEMed data from 50 apparently hand selected proxies (I don’t say this lightly) back on and got the upslope he’s looking for. In your example there doesn’t need to be any more study than that so perhaps a different example is required. I think in the case of this example, the difference in opinion is experience in plotting the data.

  34. If there is a general effect of bcps not tracking with temp, it should be demonstrable and demonstrated mathematically. Steve refers to this as if it is an inconvenient (to Mann) but agreed on fact. But he cites no review study. And has not written one.

    Just an example of what you find when you check on him.

    P.s. We need to get our guys out of Afghanistan. It is landlocked and Pakistan is going to shit. Find a few token Talibanies, construct a gallows, hang them and then leave. Patrolling every mile of that kind of territory and thinking it stops 9-11 is moronic. It’s like spooning the ocean. Not efficient use of forces.

  35. #44 I did check on him. The fact is that Steve is correct, it’s quite easy to see and quite well known. Divergence has even had a pile of papers written about it. I’m a little interested to know if you have a better example.

  36. a. Divergence is a separable issue from correlation with local temps. Why are you bringing it in? Is this more of the argue everything, assume that if I disagree with point A (on side 1) that I must take side 1 for point B?

    b. Divergence is noted in the northern climes, see the Wilson articles. In general and in emphasis. Not with bcps, per se.

    c. Let’s have a review article that looks at the overall issue of bcp tracking to local temp. Steve makes a general point about the CLASS, but does not cite a good meta review…and has not made a CLASS demonstration either.

    d. I hate this kind of sloppiness from my side. This sort of sophistry.

    —————–

  37. #39 “I feel good this morning. I think I’ll mess around with satellite data.”

    Check your email, I think I made some progress.

  38. Divergence as I understand it is the deviation of tree ring proxies from temp data. The BCPS divergence is mentioned in M08. It’s my favorite quote.

    Because of the evidence for loss of
    temperature sensitivity after 1960 (1), MXD data were eliminated
    for the post-1960 interval. The RegEM algorithm of
    Schneider (9) was used to estimate missing values for proxy series
    terminating before the 1995 calibration interval endpoint, based
    on their mutual covariance with the other available proxy data
    over the full 1850–1995 calibration interval.

    Translation, the briffa MXD data didn’t fit temp so we lopped it off and pasted on fake data derrived from covariance with hand picked temp series.

  39. John F. Pittman said
    March 15, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    #39 There was a good point on WUWT, if true, that the models were in disagreement with measured humidity. As has been argued on RC by one of the authors

    Thanks, logged saved and links

  40. #40 TCO

    “So when someone describes a flaw, it is not useful to think about the impact? How do you get through life with that attitude?”

    Of course it is useful, but if I know that it is stupid to walk accross the freeway in rush hour then I don’t need hard analysis to tell me that.

    The Spencer example was just providing an example of “disproof” that was qualitative not quantitative, that’s all, and I couldn’t care less if you care. But you are the one who stated that quantitative is necessary for “science” (which in this case is simple disproof). Mann’s hockey stick should be rejected and sufficient proof has been provided for that. After that nothing else is relevant until it come time to scrutinize the next paleo reconstruction.

  41. Layman, you are wandering all over the place. Please connect the point(s).

    My basic comment with Steve is that he wants to exaggerate the impact of minor flaws, by refusing numerical characterization when it hurts his PR and by showing different things than the overal impact, when that makes his PR look better. And that he does this deliberately. And when pinned down on it, he evades like a limp-dicked Clinton.

  42. 50. It wouldn’t surprise me if the bcps were also divergent, but it’s still not the main point, which is the correlation to local temps. You’re muddling everything as is typical from the “my side versus their side” skeptics. Also, are you sure that the bcps are divergent or is it the more northerly trees that have this noted characteristics?

  43. Bottom line guys, I read the guy since 2005. It is a long drawn out tease. Have fun screwing around on the net. But don’t think it’s more than what it is.

  44. TCO it doesn’t have anything to do with sides. How is it possible for briffa to correlate to temps if you have 50 years of ‘divergent’ data. Even Mann08 recognized it. Divergent data cannot correlate.

  45. a. ISAYAGAIN: Is the Briffa divergence you are citing BCPs (southern Rockies and Sierras) or more northerly forests (Alaska, Siberia)? Briffa has previously written that he sees the problem in near Arctic regions.

    b. ISAYAGAIN: The divergence is a seperate issue from Steve making general claims of non-local temp tracking wrt BCPs.

  46. One is a general statement that the bcps don’t correlate with local temps but do teleconnect to correlate with the hemispheric trend.

    The other is a statement of correlation prior to 1960-70 and divergence after.

    They really are separate issues (although similar) and have been discussed separately. I think you are muddling things. Go back to the very first CA post and read all the way through. I did…

    In any case, the point remains that Steve makes geneal type claims without a general type refernce cited or with penning one. When I pinned him down on this, he had little.

    It’s just a pattern, dude.

  47. You think I’m muddling things? I simply pointed out that the briffa series don’t follow temps. i.e. no good correlation. Rather than myself rereading a thousand technical posts, have you ever tried R. It’s not too hard and you could really catch him if you find the data.

    I understand your opinion about a pattern but at this point I don’t see it.

  48. Jeff Id

    Why do you bother with TCO, he is just Gavin Schmidt’s junkyard dog. He uses ad hominem attacks and switches his tactics (a typical troll) from being nice, to bad language and incessant multiple short posts.

    TCO just go back to your AGW whorehouse with Gavin and Hansen and cuddle with that airhead Elizabeth from the New Yorker.

  49. #62 I spent about 5 minutes looking and I can’t find the origin of the tornetrask data. I used to have the address of the main archive. I don’t think so right now because a google search for briffa, bristlecone would have connected them.

  50. TCO this is what I found

    # Michael E. Mann
    Potentially Non-Stationary Climate Time Series”, Geophysical Research … Mann, M.E., Ammann, C.M., Bradley, R.S., Briffa, K.R., Crowley, T.J …
    10 KB (1395 words) – 01:34, 17 December 2008
    # List of climate scientists
    Keith Briffa , (1952- ), United Kingdom, dendrochronology , … From this he produced a series of temperature predictions, reasoning that …
    14 KB (1883 words) – 06:37, 13 March 2009
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_climate_scientists
    tree ring are plagued with water problems, ie lots of heat no water, small rings, no heat lots of water also bad including death of trees, it must be both water and heat. common thing though
    wood workers love the old growth trees for they have small rings! lots of them in the bottom of lake Michigan from the moving of trees to rebuild Chicago of the 1800s.

  51. Jeff:
    Thanks for posting the talk.

    u wrote:
    I simply pointed out that the briffa series don’t follow temps. i.e. no good correlation.

    I think this gets right to the point of what some of the ‘outsiders’ to this debate can’t quite get their arms around. The page which contains the 20 proxy series all plotted neatly together are all anyone needs to look at to know that we are not just dealing with science and scientists. I could show these graphs to my 9 year old daughter and she would have very little problem in picking out the ones that ‘did not belong’. It doesn’t take an advanced degree in mathematics to know that in order to get the ‘hockey stick’ you better add a heap big portion of the ‘outliers’. So instead of a scientific investigation as to what is going on with these proxies (like maybe redoing them or actually seeing how they do in the real world of prediction) we are treated to some lame slight of statistics to show just why they are so important. You couldn’t get away with this stuff at a high school science fair.

    One of the ironies of the whole enterprise is that the climate community readily admits that neither the math nor the science involved is terribly difficult and yet when well meaning folks from other disciplines with both the math and science skills that enable them to understand the literature comment upon it they are summarily dismissed as either being politically motivated or simply bereft of the facts. It is not like we are trying to wend our way through Calabi-Yau spaces to see if the latest string theoretical exposition is fundamentally sound.

    While this says absolutely nothing about what might be the realized magnitude of AGW it says an awful lot about the folks who are in the vanguard trying to convince the population at large that a huge economic dislocation is warranted and warranted now.

  52. Tornetrask is in Sweden. The BCPs are in Southern Rockies and Sierras. Steve’s remarks are in refernce to these NA tree series.

  53. I think a general meta study of how well bcps have linked to local warming in instrumented times would be interesting. Whoever it proves out.

  54. TCO said
    March 15, 2009 at 1:36 pm
    We need to get our guys out of Afghanistan….

    TCO said
    March 15, 2009 at 1:39 pm
    And we need to let the Shia deal with the Sunnis….

    TCO said
    March 16, 2009 at 12:02 am
    Are the Briffa series, BCPs?

    TCO said
    March 15, 2009 at 7:48 pm
    Layman, you are wandering all over the place. Please connect the point(s).

    Still doubt me?

    Briffa would be trees of one type or another, correct?
    Helliker & Richter showed that trees, from the Columbian tropics to the Canadian boreal forest, regulate their own temperature, through leaf spacing and asperation of water vapor. They are living breathing swamp coolers, that maintain a 21C temp until they run out of water, then they die.
    No ifs’ ands’ or buts. Covers all issues.

    Mann’s a fraud as are his hockey team colleagues. Schmidt is an opportunist charletan suckling at the government nipple. TCO is a waste of time asshole liar crank.

    😛

    PS – collective is the root word of colleague.

  55. Takes a lot of balls to attack someone on the net after they’ve announced that they can’t log on for a couple of weeks!

    Is it just me or does TCO seem to change character a bit, or is there more than one TCO?

    Hey Jeff Id, has TCO started sending you snippets from their “SteveM” dirt file yet???????

  56. Who cares what TCO’s movites are, this is not relevant. He wants to see if all BCPs are flawed, which I believe Steve has already shown, but it couldn’t hurt for Jeff to verify. I think TCO would defend Steve on this issue if a second source could show the same thing.

  57. #72, I’ll probably have to now. It stinks because I already think it’s ridiculous to use trees as thermometers . To even consider the concept that ‘special’ trees might only grow according to temps is unreasonable. To think they would do it for hundreds of years is insane and when you start to believe that they might do it linearly! I’m not implying TCO believes any of this but I’m way past trees now.

    It will waste of a couple hours of my life. Hell, in order to even begin the analysis you have to believe the instrument record is accurate. That’s a stretch by itself but at this point still is interesting.

  58. Here’s a thought… TCO could do the analysis himself. Given the extent to which he complains that Steve McIntyre whines but does not produce, it would give TCO the opportunity to demonstrate that he is not of that ilk. It might even result in TCO comments worth reading.

    TCO, apologies if I got your gender wrong.

  59. Earle,

    I agree, I even offered to post it for him if he takes us up on it. TCO seems to have a reasonable grasp of the science so it shouldn’t be a huge effort. I would recommend R for the simple fact that it’s free and there are enough correlation analysis examples and data access on CA to get the job done quickly.

  60. I don’t choose to do that analysis. I (have) called Steve to account for making this sort of blanket statement (‘bcps don’t track local temps’) without a general study examining the issue (of his own or someone else’s).

    It’s not a huge point, guys. But it’s funny how any sort of criticism is seen as traitorous to the cause…and is responded to with “but other things are wrong”.

  61. Jeff: I think to do a good job, it would be a fair amount of work. Just getting the right papers and source data and such and vetting it. I think it would almost be a review paper in scope. You don’t want to hash it up with some sort of Loehle first publication in EnE, which had major gaffes of analysis and gaps in understanding of the previous published work.

    Some interesting questions:

    1. What does it mean to track local temps or not (what’s a reasonable hurdle, metric, etc.)?

    2. Upper treeline studies only?

    3. Foxtails and bcps? Or just bcps?

    ——————————–

    I think to do a good job, you would need to bathe in the data and try some different screening mechanisms. Probably reporting several of them.

    This would be kind of a grown up’s approach.

  62. It’s just trees though so every minute of it will be painful. I can’t imagine a worse temp proxy to use. If someone had a multiproxy approach to removing the water, bugs, fertilizer, severe weather, frost signals from a large sample set of trees it might be fun but damn, trees cannot be thermometers. There are too many overlapping signals, there is no proof of linearity and if averaging can’t tease the signal out I find it a weak argument that something else will.

    I do want to get back to M08 shortly, RegEM can reveal some interesting things, also I think I’m ready to figure out what EIV actually does now. When I’m doing that I’ll have the gridded temp data accessible and fresh in my mind so I’ll probably run some correlations just to see.

  63. But you can’t confound the complaints, Jeff. If point B is the key one, don’t hammer Mann for point A and B. Steve has a bad habit of this.

    And yeah, trees have a lot of issues. I think corals are actually pretty good. Check out the wiggle matching. They respond very well.

  64. #79, Bad science is bad science, I don’t expect Mann to change anything based on what I do so if I see some rubbish like sat data which doesn’t have sea pixels removed you bet I’ll point it out. Otherwise we just get the masterful hand waiving of gavin for an answer. It’s like the ridiculously cocky medical doctors you find. Everyone in their world agrees with them or works for them.

    Someone has to just say, wait a minute this math is hideous and looks as though it was designed to achieve spurious results and BTW what cat box did you dig this data out of? — Which then leads to, why didn’t a smart guy like you see this. etc…

    I really agree with Steve’s complaints on the single Mann paper I’ve worked on. It is one amazement after another. I’ll look some more at corals, but again the mechanisms for response to temp can be so easily affected by currents and local patterns I’m not comfortable with them.

  65. You need to be able to disaggregate and do issue analysis. It’s like a multivariable regression. If you start talking about the effect of y on Z, when we are looking at X on Z, you are all messed up. Steve has interesting stuff….but it is a four year tease. And a lot of internet booshwa. The few times I’ve dug into things like with Huybers or the like, I found him being a little Canadian sea lawyer, Clinton equivocator.

    Just be careful…

  66. RE: 58
    TCO,

    Apparently speaking of Steve McIntyre, you write:
    “One is a general statement that the bcps don’t correlate with local temps but do teleconnect to correlate with the hemispheric trend.”

    I don’t believe Steve has ever said anything of the kind. Steve’s point (and the point of the NAS panel) is that bcps is unreliable because strip bark trees are not symmetrical. Two cores taken from the same tree just six inches apart can give radically different information. Any strip bark tree will have this problem. The trees cannot be used reliably for any type of proxy.

  67. Steve has had many separate criticisms. When a weak one gets examined, his acolytes reply by debating others. Read the entire blog as I have.

  68. TCO,

    I have read most of the blog. It is rare to find someone who is right as often as McIntyre. You come here and post ad hom attacks against him, say things that are not true, blame him for things which are not his fault (like not publishing when he has submitted numerous articles the alarmists do not want published), link to CA threads that tend to prove your own bad behavior and then issue blanket warnings against the guy like he is the second coming of Jim Jones.

    Steve commonly releases his code whenever he does a calculation. He has been the very model of how a scientist should behave to make his results reproducible.

    Let me list for you some of Steve’s accomplishments:
    * He has broken the Hockey Stick. Any honest person can see his presentation is accurate.
    * He has found numerous mistakes and unwarranted adjustments in GISTEMP, some of which have been recognized and changed and some which have not.
    * He has successfully called for more open science. The situation could still be better but people are making their code public more often. Those who do not have to face a community of people who call them on it.
    * He produces the only science blog I know of where others can contribute to the work of science as it is being done. As a result,
    * He now has trained a cadre of people who write their own lead posts, people like Anthony Watts, Hu McCulloch, romanm, Ryan Maue, Jeff C. and Jeff id.
    * For the trained scientist, Climate Audit is the most interesting science blog on the planet.

    Now, TCO, I will issue the same challenge I issued in #3 above. If you can find a problem in Steve’s presentation, point it out. So far, you have not said anything worthwhile.

  69. #84, TCO gets beat up quite a bit from his posts it seems that sometimes he’s looking for it. I don’t want to pile on him myself. I do have to say that your post represents my views as well, you’ve said it better than me.

    SM is open and everything I’ve checked of his work is very accurate. I’ve asked myself several times what the tone of the internet would be on global warming without CA. There’s nobody out there to continue the work.

  70. Jeff,

    The best part of Steve’s work is the fact he teaches others how to analyze data, inspires them to the work and provides a place for their work to be seen. I don’t believe Anthony Watts ever would have started surfacestations.org or Wattsupwiththat without Steve McIntyre. I don’t believe Pat Frank would have published in Skeptic magazine without Steve. I don’t think Craig Loehle or Hu McCulloch would have published their temp reconstruction. And now we have you and Jeff C, romanm, ryanm, willis and others doing interesting work and some of them will start new blogs (as you have) and publish science papers and make important contributions to our understanding.

    Sure, certain skeptics like John Christy, Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen continue to do their research without much input from Steve. And some of this is very important research! But I do not know of anyone who has inspired as many people to get in and contribute themselves as much as Steve has. Now there are people out there who can continue the work.

    By the way, Jeff, thank you for putting Steve’s notes together with his slides. This is very helpful.

  71. Ron and Jeff: With all due respect, I am both smarter and more intellectually honest than either of you. (Please don’t take this as an insult…I know people who are better than me at either feature…you are not them. The first step in enlightenment is Rumsfeldian self-awareness. Known unknown and all that.) I have followed Steve more than you have…and I have better capability for judgement than you do.

    Ron, I admit to not reading his presentation. I have read a lot of other ones. More than you.

    Ron, Steve does not post his submissions (despite it being common practice for academics to circulate said…see for instance Peilke). The few drafts I have seen of his work were miserable. If he has such great publications and they are just not getting through, he could show the white papers. He does not. Instead we have usufruct filled blog bloviations. It’s a 4 year tease…

  72. Hmmmmm…. makes claims that he doesn’t even attempt to back up. Then claims everybody else should just STFU and listen because he is so much smarter than them. Maybe he really is Gavin 😉

  73. Trees don’t even care what the air temp is, its the ground temp (and moisture)around their roots that determine whether they will grow or not.

  74. TCO,

    Thank you for admitting you have not read the presentation this thread is about. It explains why you have not said anything worthwhile. Regarding your claim to have read much of Steve’s work, I do not doubt it. However, much of what you have read, you have misunderstood. You claim Steve appeals to teleconnections and it is patently false. Steve mocks the concept of teleconnections.

    Regarding your claim to be smarter than me, I do not dispute it. However, I doubt you are smarter than Jeff Id. Your biggest problem, TCO, is not that you lack brain cells but that you lack motivation to use them. You are lazy. You would rather sit back and criticize people who are actually making a contribution and teaching people how to do science better. It is comfortable for you to sit around and think up excuses not to do data analysis.

    Steve puts out a tremendous amount of work. And it is all completely open for anyone to check. Steve’s blog is better than a post-graduate class in applied statistics. It is more informative than a post-graduate course on paleoclimatology. Published scientists from both camps come to CA to learn and to contribute. You see others learning and being inspired by Steve. Rather than join them and contribute to a better understanding, you choose to sit back and throw rocks and expect people to say “Look how bright TCO is! He must be smarter than Steve McIntyre!” It is not going to happen. People do not care how big your brain is. They care about what you actually contribute and you have contributed nothing of value.

    You are not intellectually honest, TCO. Your judgment is clouded by your emotion and you are self-deceived. You are so viscerally opposed to Steve’s success you have no judgment. At this point you cannot even see how silly your criticisms are. You keep writing “It’s a four year tease.” What are you trying to say? What do you expect Steve to write he has not written? Are you accusing Steve of withholding evidence to disprove AGW? Are you saying his silence is politically driven because he likes Clinton?

    Steve is careful not to overstate conclusions based on his work. This is a good trait to have, not a bad one. Your comments appear to be attacking both the man and his commitment to do science right. It’s laughable.

    And if you think this is an ad hom attack, it is. An ad hom attack is the only response you have left me because you have not attempted to deal with the subject of the post.

    TCO, if you stop making ad hom attacks and begin to contribute something worthwhile, you will be taken more seriously. You have to decide what you want out of life. I think you want more than what you have right now. So stop hating on Steve, find an area where you can contribute and jump in with both feet. You can do it, TCO. I believe in you. Now show us what you can do!

  75. Has this turned into TCO’s blog? I really don’t have the time to read most of his comments (and am surprised anyone else does!). I wish he would try to focus on what he thinks is the most important issue, and make a *limited* number of posts providing specific examples. Then maybe there could be a rational debate about those claims – rather than the random walk that seems to happen at the moment (which has no chance of reaching any kind of conclusion).

    TCO might also get taken more seriously if he avoided insults, and was in general more polite. (His choice of course, but he needs to understand the consequences of that kind of behaviour.)

  76. Ron:

    I did not claim that Steve appealed to teleconnections. I am aware of him mocking them.

    Steve has not produced a huge amount of work. He has a lot of partial analyses. But you hoi polloi exaggerate the significance, since Steve reruns a lot of points, doesn’t finish analyses (especially if the answer coming out no longer goes his way), and since the cheering echo chamber gives you guys a false sense of the value.

    Someone like Zorita is the real deal. Steve is a minor bit player.

  77. TCO,

    In comment #58, you wrote about Steve:
    “One is a general statement that the bcps don’t correlate with local temps but do teleconnect to correlate with the hemispheric trend.”

    This simply is not true. It does you no credit to deny you wrote this when anyone can scroll up and read it for themselves.

    Regarding Eduardo Zorita, he is a fine man. He is both concerned about AGW and honest with the data. He would never fudge data to support his position. Petr Chylek is like him. One of his papers may please the alarmists and the next paper will please the skeptics. He simply does science. However, when it comes to the Hockey Stick Zorita and Von Storch did not contribute much. The work was done by M&M. VS & Z came along and confirmed the findings of M&M, just as Wegman did. It is wrong and totally bogus for VS to claim he took the shine off the hockey stick. McIntyre was both first and discussed more issues than VS & Z.

    Zorita gets a lot of papers published because he is a warmer. He is one of the club. It is difficult for McIntyre to publish because editors tap a member of the Hockey Team to review the paper. But it really does not matter. More people read CA than the journals anyway. That is why CA has so many published scientists visiting and commenting on Steve’s work. To pretend Steve is not an opinion leader in the field just makes you look silly.

    Now, if you really believe Steve does not finish his analyses – then grab the bull by the horns and finish it!

  78. Sheesh, I came to this thread hoping to find some decent discussion of Steve’s presentation, but finally gave up after wading through myriad comments from one TCO who hijacked the thread on the basis that he just can’t stand Steve — comments at about this level: “Ron and Jeff: With all due respect, I am both smarter and more intellectually honest than either of you. (Please don’t take this as an insult…I know people who are better than me at either feature…you are not them. The first step in enlightenment is Rumsfeldian self-awareness. Known unknown and all that.) I have followed Steve more than you have…and I have better capability for judgement than you do.” What a howler!

    Jeff, I know you have a policy of not snipping comments, but if this were my blog (which it isn’t), TCO would not see the light of day for long. Too much bluff and bluster; too much misdirection to complaints with little substance; too much self-agrandizement. Life’s too short to deal with all this nonsense.

  79. Ron, to clarify:

    Steve did not allege that the bcps teleconnect (physically) but that they contribute only to the algorithm via teleconnection (an issue of positing by Mann). Further he says that they don’t correlate to local temp.

    I am sympathetic with Steve’s skepticism of climate field or other teleconnection (although it’s not impossible to imagine some monsoon or the like affecting bulloids). I’m not sympathetic with him making general statements about bcps not correlating to local temps and then being unable to cite a review article or having written one himself.

    Capisce?

  80. I admit that my comments are a bit of a jack. That they certainly don’t reflect reading the presentation and are more general in terms of just having following the animal well and for a while and wanting to warn you guys to be more discriminating.

    Peace?

  81. #96, It seems I haven’t read as many TCO comments as the rest of those here. I read the blackboard, CA RC WUWT and even sometimes tammie looking for information and tend to skip past the complainers pretty quickly.

    I also had hoped to discuss SM’s presentation more, I found it a concise summary of his views on AGW after years of digging into the science. There truly is some powerful evidence against specific knowledge of past temperatures, even a couple hundred yeas ago.

  82. Wow, I thought Ron was paraphrasing TCO and somehow missed the comment. While I let people say what they want in most cases, I like to put stuff like this in bold. It kind of makes it more fun because people’s eyes jump to it and it’s kind of a unique way of calling attention to some of the off the wall criticisms.

    Ron and Jeff: With all due respect, I am both smarter and more intellectually honest than either of you. (Please don’t take this as an insult…I know people who are better than me at either feature…you are not them. The first step in enlightenment is Rumsfeldian self-awareness. Known unknown and all that.) I have followed Steve more than you have…and I have better capability for judgement than you do.

    As a word of advice TCO, declaring yourself to be smarter and more honest often demonstrates the opposite. IMO, If you wish to prove intelligence, just post your knowledge as honestly as you can and let the smart chips fall as they may.

  83. Jeff:

    I am smart enough (and honest enough) to tell when someone is brighter or not than me. For instance Kitty (Krazyhorse) over at Apolyton is my master. Steve is also brighter than I (although not as honest). Don’t get bugged about it. There is always someone smarter, younger, better looking, stronger, etc. God still loves all of us. And it does not mean that the smarter person is always right either. But its good to keep in mind. Peace?

  84. TCO

    Admission that others are smarter than you is a humble move which gives you some street cred, but it doesn’t cover the transparent outburst.

    I actually like you but you need to control the Id. 😉

  85. Brad G (Post 71 above) asks: “Is it just me or does TCO seem to change character a bit, or is there more than one TCO?”

    Having followed TCO’s progress over the past few years, mainly at CA (some time ago), Tamino’s, and now here, I have formed the impression that there are actually several TCO’s, depending on the time of day.

    As a TCO connoisseur, I do welcome the acerbic comments of the daytime TCO, although I agree with some other commenters that he would do well to quit complaining and actually do some writing himself, especially as he has (in his own words) so much to contribute.

    The evening TCO is perhaps the least interesting, giving rambling comments repeating many of the daytime TCO points.

    But most fun of all (when he comes out) is the late night TCO. That one is the cussing colorful character that entrances us all by his very often outrageous comments. The late night TCO is the one who is likely to post strings of relatively short, and occasionally incoherent comments. You can see some examples in the thread above.

    Clearly I am advancing an untested hypothesis here, and I admit to not having done the research on correlating the three TCOs with time of day!! And I don’t have any idea what might cause the time correlation of the three TCOs!!

  86. re: 97
    TCO,

    You write: “I’m not sympathetic with him (Steve) making general statements about bcps not correlating to local temps and then being unable to cite a review article or having written one himself.”

    Surely you know how often Steve has referred to the NAS panel report saying strip bark trees (and bcp are strip bark trees) should be avoided in temp reconstructions. Everyone knows strip bark trees are not symmetrical and you get vastly different information from two different cores just six inches apart on the same tree. bcps are not a reliable proxy for local temps or for anything. If Mann or any of the other IPCC favored papers had replaced Graybill bristlecones with Ababneh’s results, the Hockey Stick would have disappeared. This is not news.

    I still do not understand what you saying about Steve, teleconnection and bcps. I can only assume you read something where Steve was mocking the concept and you misunderstood him.

  87. 1. He made the statements before the NAS panel.

    2. “don’t use strip bark” is different than “bcp’s don’t correlate with local”. The class of the second part is more general, while the effect of the second part is more particular.

    3. The NAS panel did not do a review either! Steve citing them, when he knows they did not do (or show) extensive real analyis is the height of hypocricy. Steve is just appealing to authority (in a very selective and tactical way).

    4. Not surprised that you have a hard time understanding. You’re not that smart (no insult, you’re just not…if you at least recognize your limitations, you can compensate for them). Also you don’t try to look at things that might not go your way. You are a typical blog denizen who looks for good arguments that go his way, rather than really trying to think and take things apart and understand them. This is by far the norm in blogland.

  88. #107, Ron is smarter than Mann. He’s not even a climatologist and he realizes you can’t use strip bark tree ring widths for anything except modern art. He also knows that the correlations are no excuse for bristlecone either way.

    Trees make lousy thermometers.

  89. Stick to one issue at a time. When you muddle things, you make me sad. Because I am actually on the denialist side. Just when I see my own side being stupid and dishonest, I do the internet equivalent of pistol whipping, of leather belt on naked bottom whipping.

  90. Oh…and no way is he as smart as Mann. Mann is a math-phys washout. Those dudes are smart. Now, Steve might be brighter than Mike (despite being effed up a lot anyhow…but still one smart mofo.)

  91. BTW, I don’t have a side. If the data shows me something real, I’ll have a bunch of disappointed readers but what can we do. In the meantime my ‘side’ is to wait and not react by stupidly adding a pile of taxes on the very thing which lifted us from the dark ages.

  92. 1. That’s kind of a broad topic. Since I’ve been reading CA (et al) for years now, I parse it at several different levels. Part of why I react to the classic muddle it all together fallacy with the equivalent of high school wrestling grapevine move. All that said…and wanting to give you a general response, my impression of Mann’s usage is that his method weights the bcps very highly so they carry a lot of his reconstruciton. Which is questionable.

    1. A. Additional, unrequested for: Be careful of Steve. He throws a lot of shit against the wall to see what sticks…in some cases even shit that is not self-consistent. So take the bcp, strip bark, non-correlation (Gaspe muddling in) with that in vein. The guy is not a Lawrence, Stockdale type stud.

  93. Jeff:

    I believe that you would go with the truth however it falls out. Just watch out for Steve. He only tells one side of the story and only shows analyses if they hurt the hockey team…not when they support them. Just be careful. Truth is more important than monkey tribe solidarity.

  94. #106, 7 & 8

    Tree’s respond to temp, moisture, CO2 and other variables – some of which can be unique to the speices. Accelerated growth over a given period could be a result of any one, or combination of these environmental factors. The strip bark bcp tree rings do not correlate with local temps as well as whole bark trees according to Graybill. He hypothesized that where bark had been stripped the exposed cambium resulted in differential allocation of carbon. However, there is divided opinion as to the cause with some suggesting temperature, and some CO2 fertilization. Therefore the attribution of temp to tree ring growth in the bcp’s is contreversial and Graybill’s own work was an attempt to demonstrate another factor to explain the differences between whole and strip bark trees.

  95. The paper that McI poted about on CA begged the question on resolving that issue. One of the reasons why I think it so funny when the little monkey solidarity nuts shriek at me for betraying the tribe.

  96. Note that SM was not aware of the Ababneh results at the time he made initial anti bcp remarks and that the different positied flaws are not even all self consistent. This what I call the sailly kitchen sink denialist behaviour. Sheep eating, dry lake bed blowing, precip, ababneh, strip bark, etc, etc.

  97. The only thing that changed with Ababneh (as far as bcp / hockey stick issue) is that it confirmed the questionable status of the bcp’s as thermometers.

    The bcp’s were highly leveraged with Mann’s methods. Graybill / Idso undertook their study BECAUSE they wanted to explain why strip bark trees had accelerated growth vs. baseline temp expectations. Are you saying that SM had no basis for criticizing the bcp’s as temps prior to Ababneh?

  98. SM, himself, said that Ababneh tends to give a different form of criticism of the bcps from what he said earlier. Read more particularly. We can’t even debate the issues. Can’t even drill down and test hypotheses if it’s just a big muddle of “trees are bad” and you don’t care if some criticism are invalid, while others may be valid.

  99. #123

    “The only thing that changed with Ababneh (as far as bcp / hockey stick issue) is that it confirmed the questionable status of the bcp’s as thermometers.”

    To clarify: I should say “the questionable status of the Grabill / Idso bcp series as thermometers.”

  100. I am saying that the forms of criticism are different. In some cases, even mutually inconsistent. In other cases, are a kitchen sink of criticism, where it is opportunistic kvetching and wishcasting (the dry lake bed blowing, sheep grazing, etc.) Sort of like with the airport temps. When SM finds something that goes his way, he trumpets it even if it is an isolated study. When something goes against him, he wants exhaustive, multiple, robust, deconfounded proof. This is not the attitude of a true investigator.

    This is why I warn my side, not to be partisans. And not to drink too much SM koolaid. The guy has been a 4 year tease. You almost can’t even debate his claims since he tries to have his cake and eat it too…by citing the blog analyses as useful work…while defending any flaws as “doodling in the lab notebook”. And where he does not synthesize in well written papers. Where he reruns stuff and it is even confusing to tell if he is making a new point or just rerunning things.

    I’m almost at my wits ends to find the specific place where he made old claims…give the rambling nature of a blog, including comments. Yet if we restricted discussion to merely his published work, there would be little to debate. You would need to cede 99% of the last 4 years of discussion. And of course, since he does not do white papers, nor show pre-prints (despite being able to, note this is a cowardly and “debate controlling” tactic), we can’t refer to these either.

  101. #125

    TCO, the point is that there was reason to question the Graybill bcp’s as reliable local temps at the time that MBH98 was written. According to Graybill, whole bark trees – not strip bark – correlated with local temps. Ababneh, in her literature review, cites the differing explanations of the cause of accelerated growth which existed long before MBH98. So it is a fact that the explanation for accelerated growth of Garybill’s bcp’s at the time of MBH98 is not clear in the literature. Mann says they are temps (but does not reconcile the local temp correlation issue raised by Graybill). Graybill/Idso says they are temp PLUS differential allocation of carbon. LaMarche says it is CO2 fertilization. And so on. How is SM supposed to present a clear picture bcp growth when none existed in the literature? What IS clear is that there was reason for Mann to doubt the reliability of the Graybill bcp series as valid temp proxies – yet MBH98 depends on these series for their results.

  102. SM made a SPECIFIC comment that the bcps did not track to local temp. But did not back it up. Saying that they don’t track is very different from saying “no one else has proven whether they track”. SM likes to spew forth a list of objections, but hates it when we drill down on a particular one. This is disengenous.

  103. From MM05 (E&E):

    “There has been an undoubted increase in bristlecone pine ring widths in the 20th
    century. Graybill and Idso [1993] explicitly stated it is greater than could be explained
    by temperature. Ironically, Mann et al. [1999] (referring to the bristlecone pine sites)
    admits the same thing:
    A number of the highest elevation chronologies in the western U.S. do
    appear, however, to have exhibited long-term growth increases that are
    more dramatic than can be explained by instrumental temperature
    trends in these regions. (p. 760)”

  104. That’s nice LL. (Serious.)

    The Mann comment is just a …comment. Would like to look at the G&I paper and see how much it really is a statistical study. And still have an issue with Steve making general comments without a general review behind it (for instance do G&I cover bcps in general or just theirs.)

    Still nice contribution, man.

    P.s. Are you a sock puppet?

  105. P.s. Are you a sock puppet?

    No reason to be mad, he went out of his way and found a valid reference. I’m not surprised because it’s just trees, not thermometers. There are endless examples of trees doing the opposite of temp too. The crazy part is using trees as though they are thermometers.

  106. re 131

    Mann also tries to correct for divergence in MBH99. He posits that it is caused by Co2 fertilization and reduces 20th century growth by a factor related the CO2 concentration.

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