On positive feedback for Hansen, people often misunderstand that ALL of climate taken into account has a decidedly NEGATIVE feedback. Planck’s preferred ‘god of physics’ figured that out long ago and he stuffed a fourth order into the radiative temperature equation ensuring that in no way can climate feedback become positive on any planet anywhere. Radiative emission is almost the only means of cooling the Earth has, another energy reducing effect is that some tiny amount atmosphere is lost to space over time.
Energy emitted is related to T^4 power times a constant, times the area of the object you are discussing. Small increases in temperature are quickly counterbalanced by increases in emitted energy per second.
Now the contribution of a greenhouse gas has a positive influence on climate, this warming is hypothesized to create additional positive feedback in the form of increased water vapor. None of this will create an NET positive climate feedback because T^4 is a very big thing. Rapid change in energy emission for small change in temperature.
If you were to run a heater on a block of metal, and the air became warmer, that warmer air surrounding the block of metal would be a ‘positive feedback’. If the air became more rarefied due to expansion, less thermal transfer would occur and it would also create a positive feedback. These two effects would result in a higher equilibrium temperature than if they did not exist. (positive feedback)
ANYONE pushing runaway climate change nonsense is a science (Planck) denier. However, everything I’ve written is completely different from saying that tiny temperature jumps of a few degrees are impossible if huge amounts of something massively larger than humans can produce were to suddenly happen to the atmosphere.
the Air Vent 
James Hansen and his global Marxist politician IPCC puppet masters all falsify basic thermal physics to push over their CO2-driven global warming hoax. They end up denying Nature’s ironclad Second Law of Thermodynamics (entropy), along with the existence of color temperature, the fact that black body radiation is concentrated around a wavelength (color) solely based on its temperature, independent of composition, as seen when heating a cold iron rod in a fire and watch it glow red, orange, yellow, etc., while steadily growing brighter. This color temperature is accurate to quantum precision, allowing astronomers to measure the temperature of stars by their color. The brightness alone is covered by the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, but the IPCC turns it ass-backwards to make atmospheric CO2 a second Sun in the sky.
Sorry, for the 5500C solar black body to heat Earth’s surface even as high as 50C, it takes hours of absorption of its photons, and the surface temperature rises only because of the surface’s heat capacity of so many degrees Kelvin per Joule absorbed, while the surface keeps trying to cool with black body radiation at each temperature, reaching a peak before the Sun begins setting. CO2’s radiation absorption/emission wavelength of 15 microns is the color temperature of a black body at -80C, colder than dry ice, and colder than all Earth surface temperatures except in short extreme situations in Antarctica. On a daily basis, the surface never drops below -50C, meaning that black body radiation cools it back down overnight by radiating all its heat harmlessly to space, bypassing atmospheric CO2, which can’t touch it. Only the tail of the black body radiation spectrum (i.e. waste heat) is absorbed or reemitted, but even if CO2 absorbed all of the 15 micron waste heat radiation, and returned 100% of it to the surface, the real heat has already escaped to space, hence the surface can’t be reheated until the next day when new 5500C sunlight hits it. What a sick fake physics hoax CO2-driven global warming, pushed solely for political gain by the U.N. and its puppets the IPCC and WEF.
Not just CO2 but all atmospheric gases. The bottom line is that Earth’s atmosphere can’t become a black body radiator like the surfaces of the Sun and Earth, hence it can never reheat Earth’s surface with its own heat, the killer disproof of the U.N. IPCC greenhouse gas warming theory.
http://www.historyscoper.com/whyaregreenhousegastheoriesdeadwrong.html
https://newrealclimatescience.quora.com/Are-the-denialists-seriously-claiming-that-todays-global-heating-is-just-coincidence-and-has-nothing-whatever-to-do-wit-1
Historyscoper (TL) wrote, “James Hansen and… IPCC… all falsify basic thermal physics to push over their CO2-driven global warming hoax.”
1. Hansen & the IPCC get many things wrong, but they don’t “falsify basic thermal physics.”
2. It is not a “hoax” that atmospheric CO2 makes the surface of the Earth warmer than it otherwise would be. Claims that additional “fossil” CO2 is harmful are nonsense, but not because it has no warming effect. The best evidence is that CO2-driven global warming is modest and benign, but it is not zero.
Historyscoper wrote, “They end up denying Nature’s ironclad Second Law of Thermodynamics”
No, they don’t, TL. We’ve been over this, many times, over the years.
You’ve made the mistake of reading crackpottery from the Principia Scientific “sky-dragon slayers.” They lie like a rug! Strangely enough, it seems like reading that nonsense actually kills brain cells. Just say “no!”
Historyscoper wrote, “They end up denying… the existence of color temperature, the fact that black body radiation is concentrated around a wavelength (color) solely based on its temperature, independent of composition…”
1. No, they don’t. (Obviously.)
2. Black body radiation is not “concentrated around” the peak wavelength. The peak is very broad.
3. Black bodies are theoretical constructs, with perfectly smooth emission curves, composed entirely of unobtanium. Real things have spectral characteristics that depend on their composition. That’s how spectroscopy works, and how astrophysicists can learn about the composition of astronomical bodies.
That’s also why the Earth’s emission curve is so complex, as you can see in this measured emission spectrum graph (measured from a downward-looking satellite over the tropical Pacific; I added the colorful annotations):
You can learn about the physics of so-called (albeit, poorly named) “greenhouse warming,” here:
https://sealevel.info/learnmore.html?0=co2lines#physics
Historyscoper wrote, “the IPCC turns it ass-backwards to make atmospheric CO2 a second Sun in the sky.”
No, they don’t.
CO2 absorbs outgoing longwave infrared radiation, preventing its escape to space. That absorption measurably reduces emissions to space. It’s the cause of the “big green notch” in the measured emission spectrum graph (above).
Absorbing energy makes anything warmer, of course. That includes the CO2 molecules which absorb LW IR radiation. Their additional warmth is then spread among other air molecules by collisional transfers, so radiation absorbed by trace “GHGs” in the atmosphere warms the N2, O2 & Ar, as well.
So-called GHGs are colorants, which tint the air, albeit far down in the LW IR, where your eyes don’t notice the “color” change. If you’ve ever walked barefoot on a hot summer day, and stepped from light-colored concrete onto black asphalt, you surely know that the color of a thing can affect its temperature.
Historyscoper wrote, “for the 5500C solar black body to heat Earth’s surface even as high as 50C, it takes hours of absorption of its photons…”
The temperature of the Sun is not what controls the Earth’s surface temperatures, it’s the balance between incoming and outgoing energy flows. Either increasing the former or decreasing the latter will cause temperatures to rise.
Historyscoper wrote, “CO2’s radiation absorption/emission wavelength of 15 microns is the color temperature of a black body at -80C, colder than dry ice, and colder than all Earth surface temperatures except in short extreme situations in Antarctica.”
Irrelevant. The peak in Earth’s emissions depends on the x-axis scale that you use. Scaled with evenly-spaced wavenumbers, the peak is around 17µm, as you can see in the measured emission spectrum graph, above. Scaled with evenly-spaced wavelength increments the peak is around 10µm.
But that doesn’t matter. The Earth emits quite strongly from below 30 µm to above 3 µm, so anything in the atmosphere which absorbs in that range will absorb outgoing radiation, and thus have a warming effect. CO2’s absorption band is near the middle of that range.
Historyscoper wrote, “the surface never drops below -50C, meaning that black body radiation cools it back down overnight by radiating all its heat harmlessly to space, bypassing atmospheric CO2, which can’t touch it.”
That’s nonsense, TL. The Earth’s emissions are over a very broad band, and CO2’s “15 µm” (14.2 to 15.8 µm) isn’t far from the peak. That’s not disputable, it is MEASURED, e.g., in the measured emission spectrum graph, above.
If the surface “radiated all its heat” to space, then it would be at absolute zero. Of course that doesn’t happen.
One of the things which slows the cooling of the surface of the Earth at night is the absorption of “downwelling” LW IR radiation from radiatively active so-called “greenhouse gases” in the atmosphere, such as CO2 and H2O vapor, and from clouds. That’s why temperatures drop so fast at night in deserts.
Historyscoper wrote, “Only the tail of the black body radiation spectrum (i.e. waste heat) is absorbed or reemitted,”
1. CO2’s 14.2 to 15.8 µm band is nowhere near the tail of the Earth’s emission curve.
2. You don’t know what “waste heat” means.
Historyscoper wrote, “even if CO2 absorbed all of the 15 micron waste heat radiation, and returned 100% of it to the surface, the real heat has already escaped to space,”
“Waste heat”? “Real heat”? Sorry, TL, that’s gibberish.
The warming effect of radiation depends only on its power density, and whether it is absorbed. It does not depend on its wavelength or the temperature of the thing which emitted it.
For example, your body is capable of absorbing both 15 µm radiation and 12.236 cm (122,360 µm) radiation quite well, so 1000 W of 15 µm radiation will warm you at about the same rate as 1000 W of 12.236 cm radiation. That’s true even though the black body temperature with an emission peak of 12.236 cm is <0.1 K. (W/r/t absorption by your body, the main difference between 15 µm radiation and 12.236 cm radiation is that 12.236 cm radiation penetrates farther.)
Can you guess what the most common major source of 12.236 cm radiation is?
I was brainwashed by Principia Scientific? I recommended that it be blocked long ago for censoring my posts while featuring articles by scientific crackpots.
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James Hansen and his global Marxist politician IPCC puppet masters all falsify basic thermal physics to push over their CO2-driven global warming hoax. They end up denying Nature’s ironclad Second Law of Thermodynamics (entropy), along with the existence of color temperature, the fact that black body radiation is concentrated around a wavelength (color) solely based […]
Historyscoper (TL) wrote, “James Hansen and… IPCC… all falsify basic thermal physics to push over their CO2-driven global warming hoax.”
Hansen & the IPCC get many things wrong, but they don’t “falsify basic thermal physics.”
It is not a “hoax” that atmospheric CO2 makes the surface of the Earth warmer than it otherwise would be. Claims that additional “fossil” CO2 is harmful are nonsense, but not because it has no warming effect. The best evidence is that CO2-driven global warming is modest and benign, but it is not zero.
Historyscoper wrote, “They end up denying Nature’s ironclad Second Law of Thermodynamics”
No, they don’t, TL. We’ve been over this, many times, over the years.
You’ve made the mistake of reading crackpottery from the Principia Scientific “sky-dragon slayers.” They lie like a rug! Strangely enough, it seems like reading that nonsense actually kills brain cells. Just say “no!” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=634TjEl3jgU
Historyscoper wrote, “They end up denying… the existence of color temperature, the fact that black body radiation is concentrated around a wavelength (color) solely based on its temperature, independent of composition…”
No, they don’t. (Obviously.)
Black body radiation is not “concentrated around” the peak wavelength. The peak is very broad.
Black bodies are theoretical constructs, with perfectly smooth emission curves, composed entirely of unobtanium. Real things have spectral characteristics that depend on their composition. That’s how spectroscopy works, and how astrophysicists can learn about the composition of astronomical bodies.]]
This is all dead wrong.
Yes they do. Else they couldn’t push CO2’s 15 micron radiation as causing global warming of even one degree K, because it has a Planck black body color temperature of -80C.
Yes it is. Almost all the photons are at the peak power wavelength, which is set with quantum precision by Wien’s Displacement Law. It’s a simple matter of using calculus to manipulate the Planck black body radiation equation. Did you miss calculus the day they taught it in 5th grade? 🙂
This is a non-sequitur. I was talking about the peak wavelength only. Obviously there is no perfect black body radiator, and they all have nicks in their waveforms but the same general shape dictated by entropy.
As to the Second Law of Thermodynamics AKA Law of Entropy, the entire IPCC greenhouse gas warming hoax is based on denying that black body radiation maximizes energy loss to entropy for their given energy. Instead they act like every photon absorbed by a black body is radiated back at some longer wavelength, causing them to end up trying to count the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. This even though this fact is widely published in peer-reviewed journals, making them like some Christian cults that tear pages out of the Bible that don’t agree with their doctrines:
Black-body radiation and the maximum entropy production regime – IOPscience https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0143-0807/19/4/008#:~:text=We%20show%20that%20of%20all%20bodies%20which%20radiate,that%20which%20radiates%20the%20largest%20quantity%20of%20energy.
You clearly thought you were talking down to a piker, when I’m the leading expert on climate science but shadow-banned by the IPCC, forcing me to be an amateur even though I would do that anyway by choice so nobody could accuse me of being bought. I’ve been crusading to tell truth to power for years, only to find that “luke warmer” Anthony Watts (like you), PS, and others with large audiences treat me like a, er, piker too, instead of giving me free publicity on their main page that would help me turn the corner on the IPCC octopus. Don’t hate me for having a beautiful mind 🙂
Next time you want to pontificate with unfounded claims, first read my epoch-making essays blowing every claim of the U.N. IPCC out of the water, starting with the links I provided. The main message is that “CO2 climate sensitivity” is ZERO, because Earth’s atmosphere can never be a black body radiator like the surfaces of the Sun and Earth, and only net solar radiation, oceans, and clouds control weather and climate, hence everything they preach is a lie for political gain, like I already said.
When you recognize who the real teacher is, spend your remaining years trying to master real climate science with my free courses:
http://www.historyscoper.com/climatescience101.html
http://www.historyscoper.com/newrealclimatesciencecourse.html
I am as impressed with your scientific acumen, TL, as I am by your modesty.
My modesty? Please don’t hate me for having a beautiful mind. I have an awesome power that makes me the most serious person in the world. You can spend your whole life studying my current work product on the Internet and never finish, while I keep adding to it at the rate of a million words a year. What am I supposed to do, hide my high power light under a closed space helmet?
You’re lucky to be alive today. I hated publicity until I turned 50 and now that most people are younger than me I can blow my horn all I want and nobody seems to notice, so if you discovered me you can either profit by it or join the masses who don’t.
I hope your evaluation of my scientific acumen wasn’t sardonic. I spent a massive amount of brain power to turn the complex Earth climate issue into a triviality, allowing me to openly mock the skyscraper of IPCC junk scientists as charlatans and be damn right, and, unfortunately their critics, who give them any credence. No, CO2 doesn’t cause any global warming, and CO2 climate sensitivity is a big fat zero, end of story. All of climate science needs to be refounded with CO2 taken out completely.
Here’s an article I just published today:
https://www.quora.com/Do-we-know-what-causes-climate-change-at-a-molecular-level/answer/TL-Winslow
Be sure and email me with any errors you think I made in any of my colossal oeuvre, because I want to always be right to preserve my reputation for posterity in case I don’t become popular until I’m gone.
http://tlwinslow.weebly.com
You’re certainly correct that “runaway” climate change is impossible nonsense.
I’ve compiled a nearly-complete list of (roughly 2½ dozen) known and plausibly hypothesized climate feedbacks, both positive and negative, here:
https://sealevel.info/feedbacks.html
#1 on the list, of course, is Planck feedback (a/k/a Stefan-Boltzmann response):
https://sealevel.info/feedbacks.html#planck
It’s a huge list. What a ton of work that was. #1 is as it should be.
Very nice.